In all fairness to the Ranch Fairy, he was talking heavy arrows long before the arrow kits came out. It’s like Josh was talking about 30 grain titanium inserts long before he made them. Sometimes, if you believe in something, you have to make it because nobody else is

Honorable arrow mention: Gold Tip Hunter XT

I think the best way to describe how vanes work is to compare it to paddling a canoe. The deeper you plunge the paddle into the water the better you can steer the canoe. But that's also how you slow down

This is the best podcast. We NEED to normalize long shots in archery hunting if your equipment and your mind is dialed in. Thanks JJ & Tim.

@JoshandTim

9 ай бұрын

to each their own!

@alexbetts452

9 ай бұрын

Dont get in the habit of waiting around for someone else to approve. Animal alertness, wind, light conditions, and stability of shooting position decide every shot for me. If you apply that criteria. Your max distance will vary widely based on the assessing of those 4 general factors.

@bigz5262

6 ай бұрын

This is false. No matter how good of a shot you are animals move and arrow velocities drop significantly at ranges

Podium fletching jig buyer patiently waiting for release 🙋‍♂️

My go-to vanes these days are 2.5" Bohning Heat vanes, 3-fletch, 3 deg right helical. These vanes are nice and stiff, low profile, and quiet as heck!!!

Love that you guys pointed out every heavy arrow has a good Penetrating arrow.. they always talk to on how it's razor sharp but I have seen noone sharpening a expandable to that extent and then test it..

I'd love to see you two do a review on blinds, treestands and saddles.

Love the content. Still learning awesome thank you!

Nice to hear the word feathers come out in this chat. I love my feathers and now since they came out all I hunting and my indoor target setup with is Gateway Batwing 2" four fletch. Use 1.75" 3 fletch vanes for my outdoor target, field and 3D shooting.

Love the podcast, guys. Would love to hear the brain trust talk about feathers for a vane option. Sure, you have to refletch more often. But they weigh nothing and steer heads well.

Joe Miles built some test boxes with a scapula, hide, gelatin material in the box, and a scapula on the back of the box. If you traded the scapulas out and used a 1/4” plywood front/back to provide a consistent resistance….I think you’d have one of the best test setups to simulate an animal. Little box for deer-sized critters, big box for elk-sized critters. Good show guys 🤙🏼

MFJJ, love your technical analysis on archery. I'm a fan of what Fowler has done for bow hunters, but also see you wince everytime he talks about moving the rest. He doesn't claim to be a bow tuner, but insists on perfect arrow flight. I think you both agree on on perfect arrow flight, but you bring the technical ability to make the bow shoot correctly. Hats off to both of you. I have bought equipment to tune my own bow. Keep producing great content. You continue to educate the bow public.

@bigz5262

6 ай бұрын

RF wants people to be able to tune without a press because he knows most people aren’t going to drop $500 on a press and most people don’t have a Josh Jones at their local shop

Another great pod. Learning a ton. Thanks

Would really like to see a video on an arrow built with max helical and and an arrow built with standard offset from something like a bitz, right and left helical/offset and see what flies and groups the best all things the same weight foc. When does parachuting come in to play what steers broadheads etc

Love the ending portion of this

Great podcast as always JJ & Tim. Highly respect y’all’s views and opinions on technical archery. Your teaching have been invaluable to my understanding of archery. The titanium inserts are the best ones I’ve used on rampages. Can’t wait for the fletching jig. Are there preorders? Lol

28:30 you speak of unacceptable amount of arrow rest adjustment. I definitely fall in that category thanks for covering. I HATE not being able to see 1/3 of my scope housing in my sight picture!

I’m running the 1.5 x vanes and only fletch with fletch tite platinum and am thrilled with results so far I’ve only replaced one and only because I shot through it with another arrow

A vane I'd be interested in seeing yall try is a bohning heat vane

Great podcast 3/8 plywood box roughly the same dimensions as a elk body filled with slime and sand for consistency of guts cover outside front and back with leather or deer or elk hide. You can make slime cheap, and use 3rd grade 1+2,s for nailers on inside , guaranteed God bless hope I helped

I really love both of your channels and I also love ranch fairy. I think a lot of the ranch fairy “haters” throw around the 800 grain arrow stereotype but ranch does not recommend arrows like that for everyone. Ranch will take the time to personally help anyone who writes him an email and he personally recommended to me about a 500 grain arrow build. While that may be heavier than your set ups it certainly isn’t 800 grains lol! Anyways keep up the good content and maybe invite fairy for a podcast (just don’t be tools like Dudley was lol).

Hey MFJJ. I attempted to do the same idea of using the platinum gel glue throughout my vanes. And unfortunately it didnt hold up well for me. I had to refletch almost every 5-10 shots. Granted i may not have been able to get the pressure on the vane like you described in this video. You may find out that its just not quite tough enough. If you know of something thats maybe tougher than plat. But softer than most super glue style glues to try. I would love to know. Thanks. Love your guys podcast videos and all the DIY videos you both make. Ive learned so much over the last year and a half. Keep up the good work you both do!

What's up guys. Now you have me rethinking my vane setup. I have Blazer vanes on 28.25 inch GT Hunter XT 340's. Which I use for whitetails. But, I don't have that many left. I was thinking of going to a .204 diameter arrow this time. For the better FOC ability. Definitely a better chance of getting pass through shots. And I'll also be able to use them for longer distance Colorado elk shots, next year. I think I've decided on the Victory RIP's in the Elite .001 straightness. Seems like a pretty decent arrow for the price. I'll be getting a better arrow for just a little more than the Gold Tips. What vanes would be ideal to use in either or both my situations?

I wish your shop was where I live

Hey build a 350 grain arrow with a 3 to 1 broadhead vs 650 with a 1 to 1 broadhead to really show the difference

I think it would be cool to see a 60 yard test with the 4,6 and 800 green set ups. In the test at 60 yards a load cell plate would be placed on the target and measure the energy on impact. In another chest, same distance, you can put ballistic gel in the insert of a 3-D target and see what kind of penetration you get through that at that distance. I think those outcomes might be cool to see from a viewer perspective

For penatration test my dad has tested every broadhead weve ever used on 1/4" plywood with 6"x6" squares with water jugs behind it and go from 1/4"-1/2"-3/4" so u can get 64 test outta 1 sheet plywood and to get fancier go from pine/birch/oak plywood to step it up that's how id do it or u could put jello in water jugs but weve always just used water and it works great and yes the broadhead type is key

I think your on the right idea of water jugs and jello. Just need to combine them. Fill the water jug/2l bottle with the jello. The jug will act like the hide. The jello would have the consistency similar to muscle and blood movement. Just don't let kids throw away the coke/water jugs when done. Tell the family your recycling to save the world. When really it's just an archery science experiment

Can’t wait for the fletching jig.

I work in furniture and I can get you all the hair hide you need for testing reach out if needed! Great video!

@JoshandTim

9 ай бұрын

May need that, give one of us a follow and message on the gram

Best podcast yet. Thoughts on Sirius Apollo arrows?

PNW… coffee sack stuffed with seaweed. Probably cheaper or same 50-60. Sinewy bits, diaphragm, lots of fun!

A layer of coarse sand paper, a layer of full grain leather, a 1/2" layer of epoxy fiberglass board and then into Perma Gel which is reusable (you can melt it down and repour molds). This I think would best simulate, hair, hide, rib/scapula bone and then the gel gives a consistent stopping medium that allows for repeatable, measurable results and also is about as close to muscle/fat tension as we can get consistently. I'm not worried about penetrating through organs as much as I am penetrating to them and then having the energy to penetrate past them. John Lusk at this point has the best testing for broadheads/arrow penetration I've seen. It'd be interesting to use some of his system to test other things such as arrow weight/speed, kinetic energy vs momentum, etc.

Y’all should try element archery arrows there amazing!! I use the fire and ice .204 and I love them!! The 300 spine gpi is 8 or 9 something gpi. For a dozen it’s not the cheapest though. 😂 they also have there own brand of lighted knocks called Jupiter knocks and there also amazing!!

I think the biggest thing that is missed with any sort of penetration test no matter the test medium is it’s always static. No one really talks about this but in reality we know that the majority of the time an animal is always moving in some degree and redirection of an arrow off it’s original course is the biggest penetration killer there is IMO. I think FOC would have a bigger factor in this than a lot of things??? (This is where the RIP XV shines) I have questions just like everyone else but I would love to talk about it and I have some test ideas that I believe would be close to real world structure/density and still be repeatable.

I think Tim meant arrow height off the shelf. Center of arrow through center of berger or bottom of arrow through center of berger etc

For someone like me shooting a light arrow at a short draw a slight offset does better because I don't lose down range velocity as much. My pro comps for target are about 340.

Old carpet acts as a solid test hide

I really hope you do that heavy mechanical, light good broadhead test!!

Been a bow guy for awhile now but thinking about buying an xbow. Wondering if you could do a vid on the differences and pros and cons between the two. Would be greatly appreciated and helpful. Thanks.

Use the 2.5 gallon water jugs(ones with the pull nozzle) ...turned to the side, larger target....about $5 a jug....$150 ish to run the test between the three arrows if you stack 10 jugs. Medium stays consistent between tests and big enough to facilitate testing hypothesis @ distance.

@JoshandTim

9 ай бұрын

word!

I would imagine arrow companies don’t know exactly how much weight up front before you go to the next spine is because there’s too many variables. Like if you have a high energy and longer draw a little bit of weight is going to make a lot of difference. But if you have a shatter draw and low poundage bow a little bit of weight probably won’t matter as much

Also.. in testing I've done with multiple weights the only time I really see a large difference is when poundage is increased. I did a % penetration difference and with same poundage it was typically 5-10% addition penetration depth from the lighter arrow penetration so when you look at it doesn't look like much. But when I went with say a 500gr arrow and 70lb to 80lb bow it was 2-3" additional penetration so the penetration % jumps a lot.

@JoshandTim

9 ай бұрын

noted!

You can re mold gel. You need to heat it up to re mold it.

Video idea is a 4 fletch arrow with a wrap and standard nock and a three fletch without wrap and lighted nock to see the drop drag all the things y’all talk about

hey guys all the way from Australia

@JoshandTim

9 ай бұрын

aussie aussie aussie!

I have put over 50. Probably even upwards to 100 more in some of the same arrows and they still shot the same but they were all 300 spine. Some of them were like an inch or lil more shorter then some of the others that had less weight in the front though. That makes a big difference when talking spine?

good POD :)

@JoshandTim

9 ай бұрын

appreciate ya!

You can actually melt down some ballistic gel so you can keep using it 12:31

Jello for sure.. in multiple sizes of cubes.

I really like your content, it's great fun and I also learned a tonne of great information. I study mechanical engineering and from what I learned I think kinetic energy is the thing to focus on, because the arrow has to do work (applying force for a certain amount of distance) and if the arrow has energy it has the potential to do the work. Momentum is not really a valid thing to consider in case of penetration(it describes the tendency of moving object to keep moving in the same direction, so it could be used in case of wind-drift). And since kinetic energy increases only slightly by using a heavier arrow(because the bow might be slightly more efficient with a heavier arrow) it's no surprise the penetration test showed nearly no difference. The only difference could be probably seen at distance, because drag (if I remember right) gets greater with square of velocity, so the faster arrow should slow down faster than heavier one, because of drag (not because it has less momentum). I might be wrong about this, but this is the way I understand this with my knowledge of physics. Again, I really like your podcast and videos and it's always my favourite part of every Monday.

A pumpkin filled with jello always made me wonder. Not goin to have wound channels to see though.

I vote using Jello as a test medium as it would closely replicate the consistency of lungs however, I assume the arrows will get a ton of penetration through Jello so I assume that you will need a pretty deep target to get the arrow to stop in the target. this will give you a good idea of how much penetration you will get between arrow setups. if you only create a 18" deep Jello target and everything blows through the target. it won't tell you how much penetration each setup will get. if you can get them to stop in the target you can easily compare. could also put some sort of plywood board upon entrance to get fairly consistent entrance resistance. and could then see how much penetration potential is left after going through something rigid to replicate a rib hit in some sense. I still think shooting at a realistic hunting distance is also important as the whole point of RF's data shows that as distances become further, the energy retained is greater for a heavier arrow. that 'SHOULD" be where you will start seeing the penetration advantages of a heavier arrow. both heavy and light arrows start off with roughly the same amount of energy upon launch which should results in similar penetration. Id like to see if that changes at realistic hunting distances. Keep up the good work. looking forward to your next test.

@l.i.archer5379

9 ай бұрын

And eat your way through the Jello in order to retrieve your arrow(s). LOL

If you shoot at the jugs at 3 feet and shooting at 15 yards, you should see the difference. That's my thoughts guys.

I don't know if it's a good idea or not but for a testing medium maybe wet cardboard?

This whole dilemma with heavy vs. light arrow is only a dilemma with guys that only bowhunt. Target archers who also bowhunt quickly realize if they even try an excessively heavy arrow that “that shit don’t work”. Speed is king I believe in bow hunting situations. 700 grain arrows and normal draw length don’t shoot tight enough groups at 60 yards for my liking. I will take between 375-400 grain arrow all day long cause the groups at distance will annihilate the groups with heavy high foc setups. This is my opinion but I formed that opinion through testing it myself I think guys that want accuracy should seriously focus on John Dudley’s hill (horizontal impact) method over the foc specs. Get that right with the arrow/bow combination then worry about broadheads and broadhead flight. I bet it’s damned close to perfect after the hill method has been run

@bigz5262

6 ай бұрын

The weight of the arrow has zero affect on group size

Can you do the same test with a three blade broad head so the plastic car to grab the shaft

It would be expensive but you could make wooden cubes out of 1/4" plywood wrapped in thick hide full of raw ground beef, maybe. If solely wanting to see penetration.

Still waitin for my phone call from MFJJ for my Bow

beef stew !

We just got back from a whitetail hunt in OK. I told a fellow hunter I was shooting a 385gr arrow and I thought his head might explode. He was shocked that we found my arrow 10yds past where I shot my buck. And too be fair I only told him to poke the bear after seeing his arrow set-up.

@JoshandTim

9 ай бұрын

Lol! What broadhead did you use?

@EricDavis-vw5rp

9 ай бұрын

@@JoshandTim Sevr 1.75, 62# DW and it was only at 18yds from a ground blind.

@jacobmattson5885

9 ай бұрын

I’m using 347gr rip xv with sharpened Magnus stingers, two whitetail down one full pass at slight quartering to and the other was fully quartered to and went the full length of the deer with ~5” of the arrow still remaining in the deer. 74lbs 25.5” draw.

@EricDavis-vw5rp

9 ай бұрын

@@jacobmattson5885 I’m actually on the fence about going with the XVs next year and going 30-40 grains lighter. 🚄🚄

What’s the update on the fletching jig?

In the past I had heard the average bow shot on a deer was 17 yards. So 40 yards I’d unnecessary..

It's hard to beat a big pumpkin and some leather for broadhead testing

@JoshandTim

9 ай бұрын

we need it to be standardized tho

Sonic 5.0? Sonic Long Range?.... a 5mm version of the same arrow as the 6mm. Easton wanted to provide a replacement for people that liked Hex, Bloodline, etc. in a 6mm... but it sucks for components and I'd absolutely prefer a 5mm.

I tune my bow with a laser arrow point. I tweak the yokes and cams until the arrow doesn't wiggle on the draw board. Cams are parallel at rest and full draw. Because of that, I barely check spine, because 200-300 work with a variety of point weights. Can't go very high with point weight at 300, but with a 250 I can run up to 300 grains with no issues. They all work pretty well.

Anyone truly know how far josh's antelope shot was? I'd love to know so i could try it at my farm on foam, im going to assume it was 100yards-150+yards but would like to dial it in.

@JoshandTim

9 ай бұрын

Legend has it, it was a long ways.. but I cannot confirm or deny (tc)

Why not shoot clear ballistic gel?

Do you mean platinum as in platinum like the metal or what is this platinum that you speak of for gluing veins?

Sonics are 6mm because that is the smallest diameter that works without a half out or hit.

when does this fletching jig hit the market????

You can not replicate real animal ballistic because living tissue reacts way different than dead tissue. Just like living bone has different elasticity than dead bone. So in my very humble opinion as long as everything is the same your test is relevant. Something that I think would be cool would be a jello test with both a light and heavy arrow with both a good broad head and a bad broad head to see if there is any difference in the damage caused

I tried some lighted nocks and my arrows are hitting 6 inches high at 50 yards. What could be causing this?

@b_smg14

9 ай бұрын

I’m no expert but I’d guess whatever nocks you we’re using before was too tight for your center serving causing you to lose speed and the lighted nocks are a looser fit and fly faster off your string?

@YoureSoVane

9 ай бұрын

​@@b_smg14That's huge. Usually tight string fit only costs 1-2 fps between the extremes. There's no way you're losing that much speed just from nock fit. What's actually causing it is nock pinch. Either the original or the lighted nock is rubbing against the d loop and lifting the arrow up as you draw.

@bigz5262

6 ай бұрын

The lighted knocks are heavier than your regular knocks and throwing the arrow out of tune

26:50 WHO IS HE TALKING ABOUT

I think the water jug test pretty much showed what arrow weights do-ish on target, same point was almost the same penetration

Build a box with quarter inch plywood. Then cover it with hide Then go to the nearest butcher shop and get a whole bunch of guts liver lungs and heart put it in side And fill it with water. That's about as real as it gets😂😂😂😂😂😂

Whole hog filled with jello

Does it really matter what you shot in to as long as you consistently the same thing every time. Because all you are looking for is a consistent media.

I will keep saying this until someone does it. Switch to easy vanes people!!! They are the most stable quietest and easiest install you have ever had!!

As someone who’s studied material science, you are incorrect in saying that titanium is harder to bend than steel. Quite the opposite.

@bigz5262

6 ай бұрын

Obviously there’s different hardness levels but what about titanium and stainless steel?

Road killed deer?

Here's my STUPID, UNEDUCATED thoughts on vanes. The taller the vane, the further it is from the center axis of the arrow, which allows it to put more rotational force on the arrow. Vane surface area further away from the axis is better than the same surface area closer to the axis for rotational force. But the same is not true for drag. The position of that surface area is mostly irrelevant when looking at how much drag your vanes create. So this means fewer, taller vanes, should be optimal. So 4 fletch is probably never ideal. This also means a good trade off for surface area would also mean to keep the fletchings short in length: less weight and wasted surface area close to the axis of the shaft. All this seems to lead back to the old bohning blazer vane... If only they made it stiffer.....

Save your money and time testing to prove penetration, just make videos on how to sharpen broadheads and the impact it has. Heck, do a test on sharp vs dull blades. Sharp pointy things penetrate better... 😱

What about testing with a pig

@JoshandTim

9 ай бұрын

Testing needs to be standardized.. Too many moving parts

What Jones says at about the 30 minute mark is crucial and says A LOT about how he runs his business! Name one other shop that’ll voluntarily do this. The other shop DO NOT want to get that far into it and are extremely loathsome towards sending a bow back. If there’s a way to test wind drift between a 4,5 and 6.5 mm arrow all other things being as close to equal as possible. Vanes, weight and front of center. The whole cut the wind, better penetration selling points are total BS. Prove me wrong.

I’m not sure that anything is completely duplicatable to real live animal tissue. Most of the penetration tests on KZread are bogus for the matter of things like cardboard and even foam targets. Even jellow I don’t believe to fully be the same medium. Real world animals would probably be the only real tests and even then they have to be fresh. At the end of the day what really is gonna tell is not the in between ribs and soft tissue shots, but the femur and heavy bone tests. And I’m not drinking the kill-aid here I shoot a 431 grain arrow with around 15% foc.

I love you guys but I don’t give a fuck about water jugs. Leave that for Chris Bee.

No more arrow weight please 😂 it’s sooooo over done

Honestly, if you are testing if arrow weight impacts penetration, the medium does not matter as long as everything is apples to apples. Same broadhead, same medium, if a heavy arrow causes penetration, shouldn't it penetrate better regardless of the medium? Dudley had ranch fairy on his podcast and I could not watch it because listening to ranch fairy was painful. The guy has next to no merit but gets this cult like following, I just don't understand why people take his word as the end all be all.

Dang to much slurping an smacking for me to watch