I was able as a young man to go arrowhead hunting with my aunt near Dayton Ohio around 50 years ago. She would walk daily through the woods and river bottom farm fields and look for arrowheads. I walked with her one time while visiting her and she found a pestel for grinding grains. I still have that pestel. I seem to recall seeing at least one of those banners tones in her collection of finds that she had at her home. Unfortunately she passed away many years ago and all the items that she found were inherited by family members who I lost touch with. At least I have an idea now about that odd looking stone item in her collection and what it may have been. As an aside, she was so prolific in her ability to find items that a local college professor invited her to walk with his class when they did some field walks during the early 70’s.

Northern Indiana in the area of the once GRAND KANKAKEE MARSH, I've found about 7 Banded Slate Butterfly banner stones. Broken in half where they were drilled, have found a were Fluted points and so have others. Just 6 miles north of this site on State rd.39 across U.S. 30 the terrain rises high a farmer there has found Saber tooth TIGER skulls and Mammoth skulls. That's in LaPorte County. Loved your video!!

@pekowilenape2290

5 ай бұрын

I'm from LaPorte I've found a Butterfly banner stones in Starke co on yellow river

@jamebrooke894

5 ай бұрын

@@pekowilenape2290 ALL mine were found on state rd 39 on the south side of U.S. 30 about 3 miles south on the west side of the road. There's a big blow out! Congratulations on your find!! That entire area is excellent from points, hard stone, slate, and Clovis points. Laporte has killer sights just north of where my site is on 39.

Seeing an example of a bannerstone from Illinois in a museum (either the Met or art institute) is one of the things that got me interested in my state's precolonial history. It made me realize that there's so much history to the area (not to mention what's now the US) that I hadn't even considered. I don't think I was taught much of anything about the area's history, despite sites like starved rock, Dickson mounds and Cahokia being nearby. I somehow didn't even know Cahokia existed until I was maybe 18.

@zealandzen

2 жыл бұрын

Just the Bradley Braves and Chief Illiniwek (rip).

I’ve been lucky enough to have found 2 both broken at the hole. 1 is half of a butterfly, the other is shaped in a pointed horn . Both made of beautiful banded green slate. Both from east central Illinois.

@zenolachance1181

2 жыл бұрын

Do you think they may have been used as an attachment point for a lanyard? The holes are always in the middle or the groove to attach a lanyard, so if you were to push it through a hole in a leather garment it would work. The other end attached to the shaft of a socketed atlatl spear when they threw the spear at-large game the point would stick in and the socket would come out when you pull the lanyard back and you could get your spear back without having to get close to extremely large and dangerous prey. Much like the 18th century Whalers.

I live in central Ohio and I’ve only ever found small broken pieces of banner stones but I have found a full 3/4 groove axe in my 14 years of artifact hunting. Great explanation on the subject love the content

Visited Southern Ohio Museum in Portsmouth Scioto County last week. They had bannerstones but had no card to say what they were. A lady archaeologist was so nice as to give us 3 possibilities of their use. The museum has very little but they have pottery circa 300 BC to 1000 that is absolutely beautiful. One of the big gallon size vessels looked like it was molded with a tight woven basket and shiny black. Not primitive looking at all. I was impressed. Also impressed that the young lady took the time to talk to us.

Making my way thru ur video catalog

Very nice knowledge, appreciate the links♠️ very handy.welcome back keep em coming, thanks

Thank you for being so thorough with your explanations and factual descriptions of items and how they were found. I will use your videos for classes.

Love all of the videos. Thank you!

Excellent video. 🎯🏁 Man I love those banner stones! So mysterious!

Fascinating! I'll watch out for them from now on.

Good info mate thanks for explaining your thoughts on bannerstones.

Thank you for making your tutorial videos! Thank you!

Was given two books today on North American and Eskimo artifacts. First things to catch my eye were the toggles/Cord attachers and the banner stones, immediately seemed to be some cross cultural connection with Japanese netsuke and sword handle guards. Neither book commented on usage. Interesting videos.

That was very informative. Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

Thanks for the interesting videos ,have had a life long interest in our ancient living arrangements .

Maryland eastern shore is a great area for Atlatal light spear points and along the costal regions specialize oyster knife blades, fish hooksand fishing net weights.Great segment!

Great channel

Teepees had more elaborate tying devices that we think. It’s more that just wooden pegs, it’s things like this where you can tie off a rope...just like the same sort of tools you’d find in modern tents. And bird stones look a hell of a lot like boat cleats, and function the same too. When you think about the hole size being similar, if you’re boring a hole through a stone with the same reed and that plant only grows a certain diameter, you’re not going to get bigger and smaller sized holes, it’s all going to be reed sized, and it’s that maxed out at 1/2”, then the atlatl weight stones and the banner stones are going to have identical holes. So it’s not really evidence of them being both atlatls, only evidence that they drilled with the same plant to bore the holes. Tents and boats explains a huge chunk and I’ve got over writings on Facebook titled under my same handle here if you’re curious and want to discuss this further.

@NathanaelFosaaen

3 жыл бұрын

River cane gets up over an inch in diameter in its natural state, so that doesn't hold up at all.

Cool thanks for the video I’ve learned something

Nearly 50 years ago I found one at Tuckabatchee (Muskogee/Creek culture) near Tuskeegee, Alabama. It's in my brother's collection with a perfectly preserved bowl.

So very interesting

very interesting!

Thanks, once again

Man I love the stuff bro

Fascinating

Very informative

Recently, I was watching another archaeology video on a fishing tribe along the Peruvian coast and they had found some stone artifacts that they had no idea what they were, no one had known for years they had found them years before, they happen to run across an old native fishing in a reed boat along the coast, and when they showed them to him he knew exactly what they were and I was wondering if you ever thought to bring these to some indigenous people in tribal areas of South America maybe they know what they are and what they were used for. The artifacts that they we're finding in Peru will used to make fishing nets and they looked like nothing you would think had anything to do with fishing nets

@nmarbletoe8210

Жыл бұрын

that makes some sense there. I think we need to look beyond the atlatl. I was wondering if it could be a tool for making yarn or something else whos other parts would be wood or cloth and not survive burial.

As you are obviously a Viking, I would like to know what year you arrived in the Americas - as you have a very good grasp of contemporary (colonial) English - and a working knowledge of modern science.

Nice video! If you could post it, it would be interesting to see a bannerstone in situ with other atlatal parts as you describe.

I think you’re 100% correct on them being used as a power adder on the base throw stick , I came to this conclusion when I first saw them together in dig/discovery sites

A few of those bannerstones reminded me of the bilobed arrow motif

Thank you

that thumbnail of this video, the stone in it, looks similar to a style I made a pendant in, hole through the center like that too, very interesting...it's interesting to know people long ago might just have had the same thoughts you will have had many years after they're gone. To do things in the same way, etc.

At 4.40 the green type granite is very interesting. I have stone axe what looks like same material i found on our farm in southern Saskatchewan . I have showed to couple archeologists one says stone is from the US another said northern Canada. I've never seen that type of stone on our farm. Thanks for posting , I enjoy your short vids. Ps I've surface collected all my life and never found bannerstone and only know of one being found in area.

@NathanaelFosaaen

3 жыл бұрын

That's really cool! I suspected that the form might go at least a little bit into Canada but unfortunately very little Canadian archaeology ends up in US literature. Really the only person I know of to read there is Christian Gates-St. Pierre who I referenced in my Tattoo video. Glad you're enjoying the channel!

Finding halves made of green stone in N.E. Ga. I assumed they were Woodland , but looks like they are older. Now you have me rethinking how old many of my artifacts are ?

I found an intact lunate in a field find in Stark Co Ohio. One of my best finds ever.

Nice

Awesome Nate! I've never seen or heard of these? I wonder if they were used as club /axe heads or weights to give the Atlatls more power? Great video I Love learning about this stuff! Keep up the great work!

@christianbuczko1481

3 жыл бұрын

I think the same, throw the spear, then use the handle part with the stone as a club for secondary attack or defence

@ChauncyFatsack

3 жыл бұрын

@@christianbuczko1481 yes to finish off the game. Anyone who's ever hunted with muzzle loader knows that with a poor shot placement and no fast follow up round you sometimes have to be creative when trying to put down your kill as humane as possible. Rifle butts could serve such a propose in modern times.

@christianbuczko1481

3 жыл бұрын

@@ChauncyFatsack i was thinking for war, but that idea about finishing game works too. I had an incident using an air rifle where the target moved and got hit on its wing instead of head. The bird hit the ground then ran off... i grabbed a piece of wood and wacked it for that exact reason. Also, the rest of that birds friends saw it, and were watching me the rest of the day. They ignored everyone else but would dive for cover if they saw me looking at them. They were hiding behind branches peeping out and ducking again fast afterwards. Those woodpidgeons were clever, and a normal feral town rat type are so dumb, they literally line up in rows to be shot and moved into the space left by the bird sitting next to them as they were shot.

@ChauncyFatsack

3 жыл бұрын

@@christianbuczko1481 lol better be careful or you will end up like the people in that movie called.. The Birds!... Lol Just Kidding!👍

CID and arrow heads nice!

I thought the banner stones were attached to the tail of the atlatl spear to give it added weight and ‘punch’ in order to penetrate tough animal hide. Great videos btw.

@franklinnoblitt8387

3 ай бұрын

Yes but the banner stone stayed with the launcher. It slid up the shaft until it hit a stop transferring impact mass to the back of the dart.

@maxdaly8185

3 ай бұрын

@@franklinnoblitt8387 wow. I had no idea. That’s even more clever than I imagined.

First time seeing your videos. I'll have to try and watch more of them, so I can get an impression about you. A few of the problems that has been within American archeology, it's still a very young practice. Plus a lot of the older archaeologist's are way off on a lot of their assessments and information. Not saying all. Though most don't have a major in a lifetime study of wilderness survival, human psychology, Historical Native American Elder teaching's, primitive technology, a study of first contact within the last 100/120 with other Indigenous cultures, and geology science. Human psychology, wilderness survival and NA Elder teaching's, bring a lot of prehistoric life, to bigger and high probabilites of what actually occurred.

How about weights to add pressure to shaft of wood friction fire starting kits? Great Videos👍

I see similar holes in birdstones we find in Michigan

Great video

I have never seen such interesting objects.

I read somewhere the opinion that some of these stones might be the basis for the bilobed arrow motif in cahokian iconography.

I just found this channel. As I looked at this video I was looking at my Atalatal hanging on my wall. I am Unangan, from Alaska, and my people used this tool to hunt seals. Although the toggle spear point is ivory, it is set in a piece of stone on the tip of the spear. A master craftsman made my spear, spear thrower and straightener it looks identical to other spears found in excavations. It is perfectly functional and it will throw. I don't see that the thrower of the Aleut style had a place for any rock.

@NathanaelFosaaen

3 ай бұрын

Yeah the banneratone style doesn't exist outside of the Eastern Woodlands at any other time than the Archaic. It's a totally unique style.

Perhaps the more elaborate banner stones show a more ceremonial or ritual association? Anyway great video on an obscure topic

as a lifelong artifact hunter in northwest indiana i have found several bannerstones. could you show what the hook and placement on a atl atl the bannerstones have been found ? the sizes and weights on those ive found vary from light weights to those whos weight seem too heavy to be practical....love the videos !!!

@NathanaelFosaaen

2 жыл бұрын

Sometimes they're not intended to be practical. There's a very long tradition (especially in the Archaic) of making extra-large versions of practical items for ceremonial purposes. The link below is similar to what I've seen reconstructed, but usually the bannerstone is right up next to the hook. thumbs.worthpoint.com/zoom/images1/1/0407/14/atlatl-in-teak-bannerstone-and-antler_1_887e402b72c0b2702aed87d8100490b9.jpg

Excellent reveal, thank you. I wonder if they weren't some mini tool attached to small dowel type wooden shafts, for use in crafting with a finer skill than larger tools. Many of us who have hobbies woodworking, or with stone etc create tools particular to us for specific jobs. Just a thought.

@centuriontwofivezeroone2794

3 жыл бұрын

Has anyone tried throwing an Atlatl with any sort of reproduction "Bannerstone" fitted to a shaft? I wonder if/how they affected the flight, or "sound" (like a noise making arrow).

@NathanaelFosaaen

3 жыл бұрын

The big elaborate ones probably were more ceremonial than practical. But since they're so aesthetically complex they naturally get more attention. They're also pretty big. Too big to be for fine woodwork or anything of that sort.

@centuriontwofivezeroone2794

3 жыл бұрын

@@NathanaelFosaaen Ah, okay thanks.

@Wildernut

2 жыл бұрын

I have a rock lashed to one of my throwers, but not the spear. I can’t think of how it would play into a spear piece. Obviously, the stone takes a lot of effort to make, so it’s not something you’d want to throw at an animal to be carried away or lost/broken. With fletching at one end and the point at the other, it’s not something that can be slipped off and on My guess is that they’re are used in constructing or smoothing/straightening the spears. It’s something they’d have to do in the regular.

@nmarbletoe8210

Жыл бұрын

@@Wildernut I kinda like the dart smoothing idea, except that would be easier with a groove instead of a hole. A rock with a hole will bind up, I'm thinking. Our southwest/ basketmaker atlatl throwers often had two small stones. But they are small stones, with grooves for lashing, and they are elongated parallel to the thrower. The holes in bannerstones seem to be drilled in the wrong direction for lashing onto a thrower. idk it's a new topic to me. Perhaps they were used with soft-material that hasn't been preserved, such as fishing nets...

Really wish you would have mentioned the high prevalence of counterweights on atlatls from the southwest to drive home the fact that archaeologists are quite confident that (the simple) bannerstones were used as counterweights. Some good ol' cross-cultural comparison would stop some of the more out-there theories popping up in the comment section. Andy Majewski at the Harvard Peabody Museum has experimented with using the more elaborate winged/butterfly bannerstones as dart straighteners, they work quite well. The wings give a perfect grip to make minute adjustments to the dart. Considering that the Harvard Peabody Museum holds more atlatl artifacts than any other museum in the western hemisphere, he's definitely a qualified voice on the subject.

Your channel is a recent happy find. I've been hunting artifacts since 1993, and I am an accomplished knapper. I have also made and used arrows, spears, and darts with atl atl. One thing has always puzzled me about bannerstones. My plain atl atl works just fine without any added weight, and without any leather thong. So if banners are so useful on atl atls, then why are they confined spatially and temporally? I've hunted SW Wisconsin for almost 30 years and have never found one.

@angelorobledo1536

Жыл бұрын

I'm not sure if an entire half of a continent over a spread of 5000 years would be considered confined spatially and temporally. Atlatl counterweights are very very common in southwestern Basketmaker style atlatls, look up the White Dog Cave atlatl. They just were not in the bannerstone shape with the hole drilled through that are common in the Eastern Woodlands. It is very very clear that use of a counterweight on atlatls was prevalent coast to coast in the archaic period, and in places like Arizona and Nevada, up until 500CE.

@nmarbletoe8210

Жыл бұрын

@@angelorobledo1536 In the atlatl weight hypothesis, what use is the hole in the bannerstone?

@angelorobledo1536

Жыл бұрын

@@nmarbletoe8210 I think you misunderstand my comment because I don't understand what you're talking about. Bannerstones have been found in atlatl contexts, particularly the smaller less elaborate ones, functioning as counterweights, just like the many many counterweighted atlatls that have been found across North America. The question remains whether or not the extremely large and elaborate winged bannerstones served the same utility/function as the smaller, less elaborate bannerstones.

@nmarbletoe8210

Жыл бұрын

@@angelorobledo1536 Ok let me try again. I see (thanks for the reference) atlatl thrower weights were used in the west-- small often oblong stones with grooves for lashing. Unlike this groove, a bannerstone hole does not look helpful for lashing to a thrower. For one thing, the hole is longitudinal, where the lashings are transverse. Am I just not understanding how a bannerstone was attached? I have to say, the bannerstones in general just don't look like atlatl weights. They seem bulky and complicated, when the western ones are streamlined and simple.

@angelorobledo1536

Жыл бұрын

@@nmarbletoe8210 ahh I understand. Look up the Indian Knoll atlatl. First atlatl excavated with the antler handle, (simple) bannerstone, and antler spur all articulated in a row with holes of the same diameter through them all. Seems like a straight stick or piece of river cane connected all three but subsequently rotted away. Many people have made recreations of what it would have originally looked like with a stick connecting everything together. At a minimum, this is concrete evidence that simple bannerstones were used as counterweights. The problem is that while we have found many ornate, large, "winged" bannerstones, and many of them have a similar sized hole as the simple ones, we have not technically found these very ornate ones articulated with a handle and spur like we have with the simple ones (to my knowledge). I 100% agree that bannerstones are awkward and bulky for atlatl weights when the western ones are much more simple. Even though the Indian Knoll excavations seemingly prove the simple bannerstones were used as counterweights, it's still hard for me to buy that so much effort would be put towards a task that has a much simpler solution. HOWEVER, there is a pattern around the world with ground stone technology for people to put a lot of effort in grinding stones into particular shapes and levels of polish almost purely to say "look how much time and effort I put into making this look pretty." We see this with highly polished greenstone axes in Neolithic Europe. Definitely easier ways and materials to make groundstone axes but they were committed to making and trading extremely labor intensive greenstone axes for whatever reason. We also see a trend of technologies starting as utilitarian and functional, but for cultural reasons becoming more and more abstract and ornate, especially in elite circles, until they no longer seem functional and may be purely for show. In the Aztec mythos, for example, the 'atlatl deity' was a turquoise fire serpent called Xihucoatl. By the time of the Spanish conquest, some elites carried around/were depicted with what the Spanish called "shepherds crooks" carved to look like snakes. The Spanish lacked the cultural understanding to recognize what they were looking at, but any local Aztec would understand that "snake scepter" is just an abstract representation of an atlatl. And those ornate snake scepter atlatls likely were not functional. The gold gilded ornate Aztec atlatls housed in the British Museum are perhaps another example of this. Same with the Mas d'Azil antler atlatls found in France. They had simple antler atlatl spurs, but we also find extremely ornately, intricately carved antler atlatl spurs that seemingly have no function other than showing off artistic effort and skill. I suspect *maybe* that's what's happening with bannerstones. They started out as functional but precisely because they're hard to make, became more and more ornate and abstract as a way to show off wealth or status in some way. I am by no means a bannerstone fanboy as many others in the archaeology and atlatl community are. Experiments have shown that the simple and ornate bannerstones could theoretically work for other purposes instead, such as a flyweight for a drill or spindle, a dart straightener, or even net weights. Of these alternate hypotheses, I am most partial to dart straightener. The winged bannerstones make great handles to tweak and bend crooked sticks and cane straight. Hope this made sense, sorry for the rambling.

Hello friend. Very much so enjoyed the video. But if I may say the bannerstone is absolutely no mystery to me. I have been an amateur archaeologist (Native American artifact hunter) for more than 30 years. I have made and used the Atlatl and dart for more than 25 years. As I have been a member of the World Atlatl Association also for about 25 years. The bannerstone was just that. A counter weight for the Atlatl . Its purpose was to balance the Atlatl and dart system. It was attached to the Atlatl in a certain spot between the handle and hook or spur of the Atlatl. In other words “The Sweet Spot”. Which was a personal preference to the owner of the Atlatl. The bannerstone Did Not Move up and down the shaft of the Atlatl. It was secured in the “Sweet Spot” . If the bannerstone was made to slid up and down the Atlatl it could not work properly. This is not my opinion , it’s fact. Atlatls work fine without bannerstones. But with them they make the Atlatl and dart system smoother and more balanced in the hand and through the throwing motion. Adding more power to the throw is very little. Test have been done on this with the flex of the Atlatl. They were counter weights that helped to balance the weight across the entire length of the Atlatl and dart. Shaft and tip weight of the dart, bannerstone to counter weight towards back of Atlatl. Causes for a smooth and more balanced and controlled throw. I know all of this from experience. Did they use them for anything else. I don’t know. But as far as atlatls, this was there use. Love the video.

New to me (salute). I've given some thought to prehistoric weapons. Seems pretty likely I could have come up with sharpening a stick for a spear, and, having got that far, it isn't beyond the realm of possibility that I could have contemplated a springy stick and invented a bow and arrow. But the person that came up with the atlatl was a primordial Da Vinci. The inventor of the boomerang was a antediluvian Einstein.

Ta Nathan, really enjoying your vids. Fascinated by late adoption of archery which raises a few questions. Adoption from whom (or separate invention?) You mentioned some sort of cultural split, is there there a map of spread of adoption across the continent over time?

@BRIANJAMESGIBB

3 жыл бұрын

some image searching for indigenous bows came up with a 72" late Mohican bow but most seemed half that size. Are there many long bows early on?

@NathanaelFosaaen

3 жыл бұрын

How would we know? The bow itself is made of wood. That decays. This was the pt. 2 vid I mentioned in the other comment. kzread.info/dash/bejne/k6yi0ZOzkseeYKg.html

My Dad found an atlatl/banner stone when he was about 10 years old returning from squirrel hunting after a heavy rain in the mountains of western NC. What's unique about the stone, which I believe is made of steatite , is that it is covered with glyphs. Primarily lines and shapes. I've only ever heard of one other such stone, one from Georgia that was theoried to be Punic?? Has any one else heard of a similar find like my Dad's ?

@Ghoosier

Жыл бұрын

I’ve seen a few from Ohio and Kentucky that had inscribing. Mainly ladder shapes or scale looking designs that are in triangular shapes. Maybe the video author can elaborate more on what these are meant to depict.

@healthywithhappyspurling

Жыл бұрын

I appreciate the input, my Dad's stone could also be described as having latter and diamond shapes. Also a single horizontal line with multiple shorter vertical lines as if someone counted a significant event or hunt..

@Ghoosier

Жыл бұрын

@@healthywithhappyspurling interesting. Yes I’ve heard and read theories that it was a tally of sorts for solstice events or hunting kills. Maybe even enemy kills?? Anyones guess at this point until further evidence

I live in southern Ontario, have found many spear and arrowheads, but never came across bannerstones.

@NathanaelFosaaen

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah, I'm not sure they go that far north.

What material is the drill made of to cut through the stone? Thank you for the great videos👍

@NathanaelFosaaen

Жыл бұрын

The drill itself is made of river cane, but they're using some kind of abrasive grit (sand) that actually makes it work.

Very nice pieces. You may already know this but take an arrow head and hold it at the hilt. Look at the point and leading edges. Notice one edge rolls one way and the other the opposite. If this roll of the tip matches the roll on fletching it would make for a much more stable projectile. On another note I have a friend who found a bow that is between 700 and one thousand years old. The bow was manipulated as a sapling with big circles curled in the ends. The ends of the circles have groves carved in them for the string. One end has a pin, still in the bow for the string and the other a short arm for the string to attach while stringing the bow. When you drew the bow it would roll the circles back almost like cam lobes. IMO it is the earliest example of a compound bow. The man who has it just wants it studied and preserved for all to see. He wants no cash. He doesn't want it to wind up in the basement of Smithsonian. If you are interested in talking with him please respond.

We had an archaic group using atlatls here in the southwest but I’ve never seen these before. I wonder why...

@NathanaelFosaaen

3 жыл бұрын

They're unique to the Eastern Woodlands. The basketmaker styles out there where you live are flat flexing style atlatls that can't fit a bannerstone.

Anyone else daydreaming experiments in the back of your mind while watching? :)

Some of these certainly look like a weapons even if for ceremonial death gifts. Being from Ohio and have found several arrow heads from around rivers I would really like to come across one of these.

So where do birdstones come into play? Does the "beak" work as a hook where the spear end contacts the atl-atl?

@NathanaelFosaaen

3 жыл бұрын

I haven't done specific research on those, but I have a suspicion that they're part of something totally different. Later ceremonial pipes have elements that remind me of birdstones, but don't quote me on that. It's pure conjecture.

....Are the M522 incisions possibly a calendar count? Thank you for another wonderful presentation! The stone artifacts are beautiful, and the time period you study, the roots of human habitation of this continent, is really fascinating! It has personal meaning to those of us with Native American heritage to see tangible remnants of the life of those who walked the land in ancient times. ..... I tried counting the incisions on the geniculate banded slate stone M522. It appears to me that one cluster has 7 lines, the other side of the angle has perhaps 11. The top face has perhaps 17. I'm wondering if this could be some sort of calendar count. Perhaps the maker is recording 17 years. A figure of 11 could be the 11th of 13 moons. Perhaps the 7th day. A calendar hypothesis would predict that strokes on other items might relate to lunar or solar calendar numbers (7, 11, 12, 13, etc), and perhaps give insight into their perception of time, or maybe the age of the person who made the item. Do you often encounter artifacts with tally mark ornamentation?

@JohnSmith-ft2tw

2 жыл бұрын

They could also be a record of a hunting season. Perhaps with each grouping representing a specific type of prey sought by a master hunter. This would explain the rarity of the object, as very few hunters might be in a position to hunt full time. Another possibility is that it was a testament of battles and engagements with other tribal groups. (The Plains Cultures had a habit of marking their bodies, and later their horses, to reflect past deeds.) The bannerstones could have been used as the preferred way to administer the coup de grace to a wounded enemy while retrieving the spear. Just considering possibilities. $0.02 worth.

@riverstone100

2 жыл бұрын

@@JohnSmith-ft2tw Thanks for considering my thoughts and sharing your ideas! Battles and hunting seasons would be important occasions to record.

@JohnSmith-ft2tw

2 жыл бұрын

@@riverstone100 I lived on a Lakota reservation in South Dakota when I was young. (50+ years ago.) I always enjoyed the stories the old men told. I was always impressed that striking an armed opponent was more regarded than killing that person. Or that the stealing of horses was more of a game than any real effort to aquire mounts or deprive another group of mobility. Whatever was being recorded all those years ago, it was important. It was a calender or record or accounting of events or times that were important to someone long ago. The only message left from a long passed kinsman.

@riverstone100

2 жыл бұрын

@@JohnSmith-ft2tw Wow, thanks for sharing your interesting experience of Lakota culture and their wise alternatives to violence!

@JohnSmith-ft2tw

2 жыл бұрын

@@riverstone100 To be clear, the Lokota weren't a non-violent group of pacifists. The Lakota were often at war in the past, and the name "Sioux" is a Pawnee word that means "enemy". (The Pawnee were scouts and guides for the Bluecoats.) However, while death was a component of war, it wasn't the objective. In battle, striking an armed enemy required more courage. This was a display that could often end a battle, as it was sometimes seen as an omen of superiority in battle. Our ancestors also shed blood and committed atrocities, as is a fact in all wars and conflicts. And history must not turn from the truth, even when the reflection is unpleasant. To do otherwise is shameful. There is no innocence in men, but there can be honor.

I'm currently reading LeBlanc's book on Southwestern warfare and he describes parrying sticks used against darts/javelins. Would bannerstones add any utility in using ones atl-atl in that role? Parrying sticks according to LeBlanc end when the bow and arrow come into major use and bannerstones seem to go away when the bow and arrow arrives in the Eastern US.

@NathanaelFosaaen

3 жыл бұрын

That's not a bad idea! There's actually a gap between bannerstones and archery though. After the Archaic, another type of atlatl weight called a boatstone becomes common, then the Bow shows up not long after Hopewell collapses and warfare starts to break out.

@angelorobledo1536

Жыл бұрын

The parrying stick theory is shaky at best. Recent experimental archaeology by Justin Garnett and Devin Pettigrew have put it to bed. Field archaeologists need to stop making up theories without testing them first (though at the same time it gives us experimental archaeologists a chance to write flashy papers correcting them xD)

I wonder what type wood was used between the bone hook end and the antler handle. Would it have been ridged or somewhat flexible? Ridged may have been more accurate but flexible may have offered more power... hmmmm.

Do you know about the artifacts at Tzintzuntzon in Michoacon Mexico some very interesting stones.

at what point did the arrow become used more than the spear for hunting? perhaps the bow was more accurate and the spear less effective when the really big animals died out.

I have what I think is a bow tie ax could it be a banner stone it’s not that symmetrical by very symmetrical?

Any adhesive or binding evident?

Banner stones went out with the Advent of the bow and arrow, so, it's pretty obvious that there's an association with the atlatl. What I don't know

Primarily because of the way they are distributed, I suspect they were initially used as atlatl counterweights but became associated with some form of religious cult which spread across the eastern woodlands during the archaic. Hunt Primitive has some pretty good practical experience on the use of the atlatl to take down large game (pigs and bison). He and his archeological collaborators might be a good source for experimental testing of the counterweight hypothesis.

@nmarbletoe8210

Жыл бұрын

Does Hunt Primitive try out some stones? I still don't see how putting a stone on an atlatl would help anything.

@dooleyfussle8634

Жыл бұрын

@@nmarbletoe8210 the extra weight of the stone adds (theoretically)to the momentum of the atlatl dart. That's the idea, anyway. No one I know of has actually tried it out, that's why I suggested getting Hunt Primitive involved in some kind of test.

@nmarbletoe8210

Жыл бұрын

@@dooleyfussle8634 Cool I'll go check out his site now, it seems we need the perspective of someone who's made and hunted with this stuff for years

It seems to me that additional weight added to the spear point would increase inertia and bury the point deeper in large animals.

I’ve always wondered if these objects were primeraly for utility purposes why with out fail they spent so much effort polishing them to perfection and taking such care to give them perfect symmetry ? It seems to imply something of spiritual significance. Arrowheads and pattern range from average to exquisite to crude. All bannerstones seem to be above average to incredibly made.

@NathanaelFosaaen

3 жыл бұрын

It's important to remember that we're talking about hunter-gatherers. These people have a 3-5 hour work day. They have time to make their tools elaborate. Second the hunters in the H-G societies bring hunting as their source of social standing. Making their hunting tools individualized and imbuing them with good juju is also to be expected. A lot of archaeologists modify and decorate our trowels because they're important tools in our trade and they're the tool that we're most identified with. As to their symmetry, I would imagine that an off-balance atlatl wouldn't have been as effective as a well-balanced one.

@MarcosElMalo2

2 жыл бұрын

Utility does not preclude aesthetics. You might be right that some of the more elaborate stones had ritual uses, especially if they interfere with function rather than improve it. There’s a key word we over look when we discuss things like (for example) the different styles of banner stones. The key word is style. Man made objects have style; even lack of style is a style-an expression of the individual and culture that created it.

@ronlawrence342

2 жыл бұрын

@@MarcosElMalo2 Yes we humans tend give style and beauty to the things we use and are proud of . Cars, house , plates , knives , guns etc. These things are ( still ) readily available to us in modern times . My thinking is it would’ve taken a disproportionate amount of time to polish them out and make them so beautiful for a culture that could knap out a point relatively fast . So many of these bannerstones have little wear on them as if protected or revered . Others seem way to big to be of practical use. And there is so little visual evidence or oral history . Just curious I really don’t know . It’s is obvious from the grave sites that they were highly valued as many important people were buried with them

I have a broken one found in East Texas. Are they expected to be that far west?

Nathanael, I note that your date for the disappearance of bannerstones is fairly recent, after their being present for a long time. Given their assotiation with spear thowers (atlatls), is it posible that they vanished at that particular time because just then the thrown spear got largely displaced by the bow and arrow? Is there any significant correlation in timing between the disppearane of bannestones and the first appearance of arrowheads? That would not prove the hypothesis, but it would offer some supporting evidence...

@NathanaelFosaaen

6 ай бұрын

I forget exactly, but there's something like a 2000 year gap between the end of bannerstones and the beginning of the bow.

@michael-1680

6 ай бұрын

@@NathanaelFosaaen Hm. A quick search for a couple of articles suggests that bannerstones were in use from 6000 BC to 1000 BC, whereas the oldest evidence for bows and arrows in the Americas dates to 3000 BC. That is indeed a difference of 2000 years, but it's a 2000 year overlap, not a gap. Or am I missing something?

@NathanaelFosaaen

6 ай бұрын

@michael-1680 but not in the same region as bannerstones. The eastern woodlands only gets the bow around 1500 years ago at the earliest.

I've heard they could be counterweights to the Atlatl, which might make sense if they stopped using them around the same time. I Suspect the Atlatl would be better suited to grassy plains and the bow and arrow to a more forested setting, just a hunch.

@zenolachance1181

2 жыл бұрын

I think they were attachment points for atlatl Spears, you run a lanyard around it or through it push it to a hole in your garment or hold it in your other hand, and run the lanyard between your fingers and when you through your atlatl you could pull the shaft back and the socket would stay in the animal, which would serve a very good purposeful hunting Buffalo or any other large dangerous animal. so you would not lose your shaft you could reattach a new socket and throw a spear again. I have thought long and hard on this this is the only Theory that I can come up with to associate them with atlatl.... the fact that it looks like the handle of the pull start of a lawn mower it's what got me thinking on this... it was an attachment for something that they did not want to lose a grip on..

@couerl

2 жыл бұрын

@@zenolachance1181 As good an explanation as any other Ive heard. I wonder why all the different shapes though if it was as you suggest? I picture trying to use a lacrosse stick with one arm and then imagine how much easier it would be with a counter weight on the bottom of the shaft to launch with.

@zenolachance1181

2 жыл бұрын

@@couerl how big is a banner Stone? It would have to be at least a pound or more to be a counterweight, no? They fit in your hand nicely so I don't think they're very heavy. As for the different shapes, one shaped like a bow tie would work just as well if they was a slice in the Garment or the leather attachment I have seen pictures of the barren lands Inuit stretching hides and they cut a hole in it push a piece of bone through the hole and tie a string to the Bone so it stretches the hide without having to tie a line directly to it causing it to tear. I originally thought that this might have been the use but then they would have been found in woman's grave not in men so I began to wonder what a man could have used it for and in association with the atlatl I just believe it's some sort of an attachment but the attachment cord has simply rotted away

Could they have more than one purpose? could they be a dart straitener too?

@NathanaelFosaaen

3 жыл бұрын

What's a dart straightener?

Make the atalatl a duel purpose weapon maybe? Spear throw followed by melee is common in other parts of the world. Pilum then gladius in Rome, javelins followed by hangers or falchions in Medieval Iberia, plumbata and spatha in Late Rome or the Migration Era.

@NathanaelFosaaen

3 жыл бұрын

That's a possibility worth considering. I still need to make some replicas and see how they hold up to that kind of application. the rod that runs through them isn't very thick. the hole is only about 1cm in diameter so I'd be worried about it breaking, but it IS an idea.

@BigWillyG1000

3 жыл бұрын

@@NathanaelFosaaen Could be a backup kind of thing as well. Guys like Matt Easton and Metatron who specialize in swords, axes and maces in Europe point out they were vast majority "side arms" not designed for primary combat but when your primary arm is not usable. Missile combat is the norm in the post bow period in the same regions bannerstones were used until contact so it seems reasonable to see combat in the pre-bow period was also missile based just a different launcher and bannerstones made a kind of "personal defense weapon" if someone got too close. Also might explain the mace heads overlapping in areas since more intentional melee combat may have existed at the same time. Much like bayonets and saber/lances in the 18th century in Europe. The written records of the likes of Champlain certainly describe fairly complex warfare.

Do you think the Rio Grande/Pecos river system was navigable all the way to the Gulf & Tahini ?

Banner stones disappeared with the atalal in the forground due to the change in game..ie...the pray got smaller an the bow sling and blow gun were the choice weapons of the woodland era....u said why did they quit finding them after the archic era🤔 ...that was simple to conclude... practicality...yet they must have had some status among the people for the elaborate ones took time an craft to feel an look impressive...... an that they are!

@NathanaelFosaaen

2 жыл бұрын

Atlatls persisted for over 1000 years after after bannerstones stop being produced, and the prey didn't get smaller after the Archaic. Actually it looks like Deer in particular got a little bigger. so it's not THAT simple. Also, what's with the "..." ?

Makes me wonder if these stones were used as sink weights attached to the atl atl for spear fishing. You could easily attach a rope to the ones with fins. With enough weight you could overcome buoyancy.

@Getdownorlaydownbum

2 жыл бұрын

🤣 🤣

Most of those look like they would get in the way or make an atlatl more difficult to use , impractical, unless I’m completely missing how the were used. Even w/o the perforation, they all look like they were designed for cordage attachment. ( just my ignorant opinion)

Have any banner stones been found among the Yukon ice melts.?

@NathanaelFosaaen

2 жыл бұрын

That's too far west. Bannerstones are exclusive to the Eastern Woodlands.

@michael-1680

6 ай бұрын

@@NathanaelFosaaen I would wonder why... atlatls certainly were used in the far west,, so one would think that counterbalancing stones would be present, too.

How do yaw know they were used on atalats and not for fishing?

@NathanaelFosaaen

3 жыл бұрын

As I noted in the video, they are often found in a linear association with atlatl hooks and handles. An atlatl hook isn't like a fishhook at all.

One interesting theory about what these stones were used for is for grinding and bending an atlatl dart shaft round and straight.

@michael-1680

6 ай бұрын

The big butterfly wings on many of them seem like overkill for such a mundane task.

@mcchuggernaut9378

6 ай бұрын

@@michael-1680 Yes, but you gotta' take into account that primitive people often heavily ornamented mundane items simply because when you live very simply you have few things to spend time embellishing. Later natives wore elaborate headdresses which served no survival purpose, carved intricately decorated pipes, clubs, beads, and did things like decorate blankets, clothing, and ornament knives and lodge poles, etc... Pretty much everything they used got decorated if they had the time. And an object that every hunter would have prized and used like a dart shaft straightener would likely have been heavily decorated as well, and even have had mystical significance associated with these embellishments. My guess is that the "wings" started out as just convenient hand-holds, then evolved into the artistic form later. And while I am just taking an educated guess as to what they were used for, I don't think ruling it out as artistic overkill is a valid reason to rebut that guess, given the artistic bent we know these people had. We just don't know yet. Maybe future finds will put all our speculation to rest some day.

@michael-1680

6 ай бұрын

@@mcchuggernaut9378 If we were talking about curliques or zigzag patterns, I could see it. But this is like putting full-size tailfins on a pipe wrench. Also, decorations tend to be individualistic. The widespread duplication of the design argues for a more utilitarian reason.

So when that ladle is thrown it hits its Target after that it slides down the shaft like a hammer, to thrust it deeper?;)

@Bassmasterwitacaster

2 жыл бұрын

They would be more likely to lose them and would be as common as the atlatl points themselves. They also would mess with the arodynamics of the arrows and and would just work better without a banner stones tied to them. I think he was talking about them being tied to the atlatl itself, not the atlatl arrows.

@mammothriders1325

2 жыл бұрын

I was kind of thinking like a dead fall action on the arrow acts like a hammer and plus they're sharp might do extra damage if not it would just flop around kind of like an anker dart. But it's probably just a throwing ax or battle ax. Sorry dude I got a vivid imagination

Were bannerstones for atlatls? 1. timing. does not match 2. geography. does not match 3. attachment orientation. does not match 4. weight. ?does it match known stones? 5. function. ?does it work as well as non-drilled weight stones, which would be far easier to manufacture?

I found one in Mississippi

@user-il5tp2sv4y

7 ай бұрын

Completely intake

Can I contact you private on a stone ball I found years ago it is softball size with an impact flake taken off. Found in mid western Pa. I checked it and it is non magnetic. I have been hunting ang collecting artifacts and relics for 35 years. Nice videos

@NathanaelFosaaen

2 жыл бұрын

That's a question for the PA archaeology society.

Why was the atlatl abandoned 3500 years ago? Was the bow invented by then? What was better than the atlatl?

@NathanaelFosaaen

2 жыл бұрын

The atlatl wasn't abandoned until sometime after 1400 years ago give or take. It's the bannerstones that stopped being made. the atlatl didn't subside until the bow and arrow took over, and even then it didn't completely replace the atlatl.

@pgantioch8362

2 жыл бұрын

@@NathanaelFosaaen Thanks for answering. I hope you tell more of this story in other vids. I’ll keep looking (only discovered your channel recently!).

how was the hole drilled in a stone like this?

@NathanaelFosaaen

2 жыл бұрын

Cane and sand grit. Probably with a bow drill.

@madeconomist

2 жыл бұрын

@@NathanaelFosaaen Thanks. I guess you would go through a lot of cane doing that?

Hi Nathaneal, I have a stone that I think is banner stone and I’m wondering if there is an email that I could get a picture to u?

@NathanaelFosaaen

2 жыл бұрын

You should contact your local state archaeological society about it! they're in a much better position to do something about it than I am if it's legit.

I'm gonna guess that these people had some unusual jewelry and decorations.

Aren't atlats with a cylindrical cross section fairly rare?

@NathanaelFosaaen

4 ай бұрын

Atlatls in the eastern woodlands of any description are rare because it's usually too wet for wood to preserve. but hooks and handles with cylindrical sockets are found from time to time.

Most bannerstones are actually mace heads. Small grooved stones are atlatl weights.

@NathanaelFosaaen

2 жыл бұрын

Evidence?

@thatsmallrockshop

2 жыл бұрын

@@NathanaelFosaaen base theorys of off all finds not just a cluster of finds. Also need to read old literature etc etc etc. And use some common sense as well.

Virtabra!

They were not counterweights. they were counterbalanced slide hammers to transfer energy to the atalatal dart probably to the detriment of the mastodons.

@NathanaelFosaaen

3 ай бұрын

Mastodons didn't exist in the region when these were invented.