When I first started watching your channel I was drawn by the mid century modern interiors, your down to earthness and the intro's with the coffee making. Love to see that nothing has changed and the coffee making is back :)

Just because AirPlay is sending things in bursts doesn't automatically mean it's lossy. You can send things in chunks and then reassemble them into a 16/44.1 PCM file in buffer. That doesn't prove anything. You need to intercept the traffic and actually look at the data in the packet.

@tgp-2

6 ай бұрын

Correct ... "continuous" network transfer vs bursts doesn't prove anything, but it's an easy way to visually identify buffered vs real-time Airplay streams ... comparing the average bitrates is more convincing More details available here ... docs.google.com/document/d/1BUee0PqM6LC4lo6HqTtEb5bQxs4GoCFSxvEsOveWvS8/edit?usp=sharing

If your are interested in picking up a used Airport Express with Airplay 1 note that there are two versions- The first Express (model A1084) was wireless A/B/G, and the next gen (model A1264), obviously, is wireless N. They both look the same in the old body style. More importantly, the oler model A1084 doesn't interface with Airport Utility 6.0. at all. It can't be recognized by your network if you're running 6.0 - you'll just see the amber light. So you will need the A1264 to use with Airport Utility 6.0 and have the benefit of N wireless along with Airplay 1.

Absolutely love this video. This is exactly the kind of information I look for, which is to say that it's technical and specific, but it is also not above my head and nicely contextualized so that people can decide for themselves whether or not it's worth taking any action to address. Useful information without a whole lot of judgement or hyperbole. Hit me right in the sweet spot. Thanks.

John, thank you for an excellent installment. This clarity is much needed.

Loving the channel. Thanks for all the great insights Sir!

This is the most helpful insight to AirPlay I’ve seen. Now, I have to decide which streaming service I need to move to to get the max data rate and best quality. Love the channel and all the information. Bang up job!!!!!!

Outstanding organization of information and delivery of such! Well done Mr. Darko.

Thank you for making a complicated subject understandable. BTW, I enjoyed the music background behind the B-Roll in the video. It's a nice touch!

Thanks for the info John Ndola Brother Thomas. Love the music and opening b roll on this one too!

superb research! thanks

Great video, and also a great V60 pourover technique!

Excelente! This is what is realy helpfull! 5 stars on this review.

I watched this whole presentation to the end and hardly understood any of it. Good job, John 😉. Always entertaining!!

Thought I was watching James Hoffman for the first 40 seconds.

My brain hurts.

Thank goodness for this pious audiophile and his devotion.

Loved this video, there are many of us I suspect that really appreciate this!

Thanks for all you do, Jon.

I love the coffee intros John!

Thanks for this guys, much appreciated. I got fed up with this & AirPlay and now I just use a good USB DDC for my DAC. Sorted.

Very informative video, thank you!

Please continue this kind of videos....this was so interesting and informative. It's crazy how there is now direct info on this on Apple's website for example. Oh and thank brother Thomas (I hope I wrote his name right HAHAH)

Love this content John and Thank You Bro' Thomas. I'm a little old fashioned and use my Mac as the streaming control around the house, so I now need to see how this affects quality too. 🤣 BTW for any AudioPro owners, the Wiim app also controls their hardware and seems a little more stable when selecting radio content. 👍

Very relevant content !!!

I like your videos. Extremely easy to understand hard to get material like losless, lossy, hardware and app differences. However I am missing an overview which apps support airplay 1 for losless music.

Love your reveal of why Brother Thomas is named so at the end.

Thanks for the video. Still confused on how to play my Apple Music to my stereo with either a WiiM Pro or Node 2i end point. Also using Roon server for all my ripped CD in FLAC but know how that works. Must I go thru an iPhone or iPad?

Very interesting video thank you! Do you know if using the Apple Music app on the Apple TV wired to an amp prevents the downsampling?

Very pleased to see your upgraded coffee game - filter coffee is the best coffee! Try a stir of the slurry at the end of your pouring to get those high and dry grounds to draw down fully - you'll get a more even extraction and balanced cup.

@LencoTB

9 ай бұрын

Coffee isn’t healthy as many people think. It contains acrylomide

@sixergixer

9 ай бұрын

@@LencoTBNeither is the air we breath.

When you put the music files onto your iOS device it's always transmitted with ALAC encoding. The fallback to AAC is only if the files are streamed wirelessly from another device to the iOS device to the AirPlay2 receiver. I verified this with my own shairport-sync installation which has a debug mode when started on the command line. ;)

@jasongoughuk

9 ай бұрын

So if I download an album that I would like to listen to in the lossless quality option, and then airplay stream it to my Bluesound powernode… That would continue to transmit in CD lossless quality? And are you sure about your findings?

I love the more technical discussions! Especially on the software/hardware interaction. Knew of Airplay 1 & 2 but not of their technical differences. A lot of the information here confirms my own suspicions about AirPlay's 'inconsistencies' and why I disliked Apple Music over even just Spotify in some cases.

I use a Raspberry Pi Zero 2 as my end point and have been trying to get Airplay 2 working. Thanks for video, will stick with Airplay 1.

Lovely insight on the AirPlay theory brother John.

Very interesting video.

Yeeees,great one Jon,this topic really needed addressing! Now for part two,sound comparison between airplay one and two stream and should we all get that aging ariport bridge 😂

Great video and info John and Brother Thomas. I also tried various ways to listen to Apple Music on my setup (BlueSound POWERNODE and Polk Audio Reserve R200 speakers), including streaming from an iPhone, an iPad, a MacBook Pro and an AppleTV. I found that the best quality was directly from an LG tv with the Apple Music app installed (via LG WebOS) and using the HDMI connection.

@andrewcrossley2448

9 ай бұрын

Or just get an Apple camera cable a top end DAC and wire it into a high quality stereo. Apple Music and Apple Classical via a small iFi ZEN Signature DAC v2 is full HiRes and sounds better than any BlueSound product I’ve demoed. The iFi holds its own with top Rega and Marantz amps into serious speakers such as AE 520s. The Node system is less accurate.

@mongo2044

9 ай бұрын

I think the webos LG app on the TV has a really nice interface. Maybe the best. However, note that Apple Music controls like that on a non Apple device, stream only AAC 256. But it still sounds great!

This finally explains why there is an easily perceptible difference (for me) between playing music locally through my M1 Mac mini as the source for my hifi rack vs streaming from my 13mini! I did tons of research a while ago and the findings were similar in that AirPlay 1 devices reliably did cd quality lossless, however there was no rhyme nor reason to it. Nice to have an explanation :)

@mongo2044

9 ай бұрын

If you mean from a mac to your system by , no Airplay, macOS has no exclusive mode, unlike iOS. Are you adjusting Audio MIDI Setup on the mac so it matches your audio file? For every song… If not, like me, I just set mine to 24 bit/176.4 kHz as none of the bit perfect add ons from third parties work all that well and that setting works well for nearly all music resolutions for upsampling. If by Airplay from mac to your system, Audio MIDI Setup does not come into play.

thanks a lot for all of this john! not keen on the brother thing tho 😉

John, this is f***king insane. It does explain finally why when I stream Amazon Music or my ripped CD's via AirPlay (I assume AP2) on an iPhone 12 to the Wiim Mini endpoint, the sound is definitely inferior as compared to streaming CD quality from the Wiim Mini Amazon app to the Mini endpoint. I thought I was imagining the lower audio quality. Thanks to you and Brother Thomas!

Curios if this would also apply to streams which are hosted and initiated from a HomePod running Apple Music natively and then airplay to a receiver? Meaning the phone is not transmitting anything. Since the HomePods are always plugged maybe battery isn’t a consideration.

Very good explanation

Hi John! Dig the Jazz soundtrack music on this vid. As stated, the apple airport needed a 3.5 to to toslink cable to your DAC. Unfortunately i found the drop outs unbearable. I had to go 3.5 to RCA into the amp and use the internal airport DAC. With this configuration at the time, I found the sound decent with no drop outs. Things have moved on from then with Connect features and DAC's. But you got me thinking ! Im going to do a comparison between my old Apple Airport set up and current streaming kit to hear how far along i've actually come.

I'm confused by the table showing bitrates. If I am streaming 24/48 from apple music to airplay2 is it ALAC or AAC? How Can I test it?

I can smell the coffee looking at this.

Streaming Airplay to the Cambridge Audio CXN V2. How can I find out whether the CA app is a AP1 or AP2 implementation?

I’ve been using the DJ Pro app on and off and recently they updated so that you can play Apple Music through it. If you then use Apple Music to Airplay the music to WiiM Pro, the WiiM app shows 900kbps as opposed to the 256kbps if you Airplay directly from Apple Music. Appears to be gapless too (appreciate is a dj app with mixing anyway.)

I appreciate your effort 👍

My first foray into streaming was Tidal on my iPhone 8 to an older Apple TV with optical output. The optical fed a Schiit Modi3. It’s long been replaced by an assortment of streamers the current ones being a Node and WiiM Mini. I use the same DAC on the WiiM

Good to know! I am still using shairport-sync on my nano-pi with toslink hat and even considered replacing it Wiim pro just to get Airplay 2. I think i will skip this upgrade then :)

I use the button below Airplay on my iPhone or iPad, use the device as a remote. That way I can go directly to the streaming device and can even close Apple Music and the stream will continue. For automations I use the Homekit app and here this is also working.

John, love your content , great job. (thanks B Thomas!)Kinda, make me wonder why spend $$$$$ on high end gear if the source is typically streaming? If source material is CD or vinyl then one could make a case for a bigger budget for gear. John thanks for helping us sort facts from marketing (hardware and software).

Great information mate. Question… I have AirPlay 1 hardware for sure, so I'm happy about that I guess. However, what's interesting is that when I'm streaming to the AirPort Express from my iMac, there is no 2-second play/pause delay. I use Roon and the core is on my iMac, but I basically remote control the Roon Core from my Roon app on my iPhone (if that makes sense). When I pause the music it is instant. BUT… if I play Qobuz straight from my phone to the AirPort Express, there is indeed a pause. Roon is sourcing from Qobuz, but no delay. What do you think is happening at the Roon level that enables it to not have the delay? Thanks mate.

Darko, when I stream via Airplay 2 from my iPhone 13 with Tidal HiFi app to my Marantz 40n I am not getting lossless CD quality? 😢 I guess my only solution is to buy gen1 Airport Express and connect it via optical to my Marantz amp, thats the only way I can stream lossless Tidal CD quality with my setup with Airplay am I right? Thanks.

I like the nod to Cheapaudioman - except you show how a proper cup of coffee should be made.

@2shoestoo

9 ай бұрын

Does that imply my Kcups suck? 😀

Thanks John, and thank you Brother Thomas. It really isn't simple, is it? I like multi-room audio, so I was delighted with Airplay 2. I was already running Shairport/Airplay 1 on a Raspberry Pi 3B+ in my lounge room, and I bought the Apple TV 4K for my televsion and stereo in my media room. However, I endured consistent and regular loss of audio from the Apple TV anytime I selected more than one endpoint, anywhere from 3 minutes to half an hour at most. Single endpoint always worked fine.The Shairport never missed a beat. I changed the TV, the amplifier, the phone, the network, all the operating systems and yet the problem persisted for over a year: it looked like the AppleTV was playing the music, but no sound came out. I wasn't alone, some on the apple forums with similar experiences, but no real solution. I found, eventually, that Mike Brady had developed shairport-sync, an Airplay 2 client, and that did the trick: with now only Airplay 2 endpoints, I have consistent multi-room audio and no more drop outs. So mixing that protocol didn't work out so well for me, your mileage may vary.

The Nice 👍 One ☝️ Great information.

This is wild, thank you very much folks 🙏😎

As soon as the Sonus Fabers got announced I figured those were what you had under the covers in a recent video. Looking forward to that review!

You explanation here on why you think it is lossy is either poor or plain wrong. Just because data is sent in bursts does not mean that less data is sent. Full lossless CD Audio is approx 1.5 MBytes per second so approx 15MBytes ever ten seconds. A 5GHz wireless connection can transmit about 130MB per second so you'd need a little over 1/10th second burst to provide all the lossless data you need for the next 10 seconds of playback. It would be highly inefficient to send a tiny amount of data continously. I am suprised tgat AP1 apparently took this approach, bizarre. Do you think the streams that you get from TIDAL or the like are continuous? Well they're not, all Internet data is split up and sent across the Internet in chunks. The chunks may or may not arrive in the right order, but that doesn't matter they're put back together again, perfectly. Besides the next part of the file is only sent when the receiver requests it, the transmitter doesn't just keep sending a huge file as one continuous lump without any handshaking and control from the receiver end.

Okay, Enlightened 🙏😇

Question: what append when the music is downloaded to the iPhone?

A little of topic But I noticed in the settings of my usb c AirPod pros. It says you can’t use Crossfade when using Airplay I’m using Bluetooth and seeing this Is this a possible hint to usb c AirPods using a combination of Airplay and Bluetooth to possibly stream Lossless with a future update

Amen brother Thomas

I’m a bit confused when you said that the initiating device and app need to be network connected to maintain an Airplay 2 music stream. I can start an Apple Music stream to an Apple HomePod and then completely power down my phone and the stream continues fine. Is this not the case with non-Apple Airplay receivers?

And btw, when i play apple music, spotify, amazon music,… to my Eversolo DMP A6 (airplay 1 receiver), via Airplay (iphone 13 ), it doesnt get the circle, so i asume it’s changed to airplay 1 when it gets the signal, but on the screen of the Eversolo, says AAC 44.1khz. So i dont know if its still compressed. Thanks a lot!

@gregorioavalos1256

6 ай бұрын

I know little to nothing but Apple natively in lossless is AAC 44.1khz so that’s the best case… but I’ve only researched for 30 min

I have major problems with trying to run my Kef app on my ipad. I don’t know if this is a fault with apple or with kef. Often airplay stops recognising my ls50 wireless ii speakers. But also the kef app stops recognising my speakers too 🤷 I’ve tried deleting and reinstalling the app, resetting the speakers, restarting my ipad. Unlikely to be my network as I have super-fast broadband and no problem streaming tv programmes and music on my Denon speakers. Answers on a postcard please 🙂

Considering jumping in to Streaming using a Wiim Mini attached to a DAC and using Spotify or Tidal connect. My laptop and phone are Apple and relatively new. Will I still subject to this phenomena then?

Great investigative work John and Brother Thomas! .... May I suggest a topic for another video: the Apple Music app feature to "Control Other Speakers & TVs" for those who want to stream Apple Music Lossless controlled by their iPhones. I avoid AirPlay 1 or 2 for reasons that John stated in the beginning of the video (battery drain, loss of music when out of WiFi range, or interruption when taking a phone call). My preferred method is to use the iPhone as merely a remote control by choosing the option to "Control Other Speakers & TVs". In my case the other devices are Apple TV 4K's connected via HDMI to Oppo 205 and 105D. The device being "controlled" then streams Apple Music Lossless directly from the internet. Cheers, Gary

@YouTubes33

9 ай бұрын

That's a useful comment. Will definitely try that! 💯

Spotted the Baratza grinder. I use my iPhone to control the AppleTV4k for Apple Music, HDMI to AVR. Still have an AirPort Express in a box not currently used.

Thank you Brother Thomas 👍

Good video! Lately I made quite the effort to stream lossless files to my integrated amplifier. I connected an apple tv a1469 with toslink to the amp and put all 16-24 bit 48khz (I read somewhere that 48khz 24bit is the highest an apple tv can handle but brother thomas's table seems to indicate otherwise) music in the music app on my iPhone. For a moment there I thought that all this effort has been futile but my phone shows the finch without circle when selecting the apple tv for music. I looked somewhat further into it and it seems as if this apple tv (happily) does not support airplay 2. I'm surprised at how complicated all of this is and determined not to get a newer apple tv soon.

So that means only way how to get Lossless sound from Apple Music iOS app is using wired connection when receiver is AirPlay2?

I'd love to know how those sonus faber duetto sound on a desk, if you ever get a chance (or if they're just too big)

That's some nice V60 action! Do you have some good local roasters in Berlin?

Would love to hear how you rate the Apple AirPort Express using one (analog output) to your recent reviews of more modern kit. I I’m still buying stand LP’s so use it for radio. Ta

Thanks John and Br Thomas , Very informative. Who would have thought that Airplay 2 would compromise the sound quality? Before (tidal,spotify) connect came along Airplay was the streaming choice for many albeit Airplay 1.

@mongo2044

9 ай бұрын

It did not. This is only a situation under specific use while using paid Apple Music streaming. I stream fine ALAC files from a Mac using iTunes Remote on iOS as well at Lightning to USB to DAC to amp.

New picture on the wall? Your work? Like it.

Hi, I have never used any Apple product but still loved learning more about it. Do you think you could do a video comparing Roon Plex Amp? I use Plex Amp and have Roon but rarely use it. I control my music with whatever screen is nearest to me. I also use the Sony NW-ZX707.

I guess i'm unusual. I never stream music from my phone. I stream all my music from my 27" iMac. Mostly i use JRiver Media Center as my source, but occasionally Apple Music. I stream to a stereo pair if Homepod 2's in my office. I also play music from my iMac through JRiver Media Center via &SB to my Dac -> Headphone Amp -> Headphones. Obviously that is always hi-res, full but depth with out any lossiness. I'm wondering though if i'm using JRiver on my iMac to airplay to my stereo 2's, is it being downgraded to lossy or not? Your very thorough video doesn't seem to look at this type of situation. Can you hrlp clarify this, please?

Cf. The audiophilestyle article from a couple of years ago entitled “Apple Music Lossless Mess Part 2: AirPlay” which also goes into this in some detail from a slightly different slant

I sometimes stream Apple Music from my modern iPad to my Rotel A11 Tribute. The songs will usually say Lossless or High Res during playback, am I getting the best quality possible?

@punkgoblin1168

9 ай бұрын

Yes, no, and maybe. Are you running a hard-wired Lightning to USB-C to an external DAC? YES! Are you sending it to a Bluetooth receiver? NO! Are you doing something else? MAYBE! I use an Apple dock with a 3.5mm output and a Lightning connector for power to an SVS 2000p Pro sub, then after it crosses over the signal at 88Hz it sends everything above that to my Bose 901 V EQ, and then that signal goes to my Crown DC300-II amp and off to the 901's - If I want to rock out like a mofo. Otherwise, I bypass the Bose EQ and it goes from the sub to the amp to my Magnepan IIB's. Planning to add some Cesti-B's and Polk 10b monitors to the mix soon as speakers seem to make the greatest difference in the sound I hear. Oh, and contemplating making some open baffles with a concentric tweeter in the midrange driver, ABX Audiophiles design.

@mongo2044

9 ай бұрын

Go to the Rotel specs. If it says Airplay. You are good. If it says Airplay 2, this is still the discussion but, I cannot tell the difference when I did some Airplay vs Airplay 2 testing of Apple Music streaming. In both instances, I used same systems but just changed from an Airport Express (downgraded to Airplay) vs internal Airplay 2.

Please put in every video a coffee making clip :D

Another thought regarding the HomePod 2, as it sends 24/48 to another paired HomePod 2, can it also connect via Airplay to another brand of Airplay 2 receiver with 24/48, not paired?

@mongo2044

9 ай бұрын

Yes, you can use the HomePod as the Apple Music streamer that sends to other receivers and control it with Control Other Speaker& TVs in Apple Music Airplay controls. But you don’t gain much IMO for the hassle of the COST UI and UX.

@Sven-yl4py

9 ай бұрын

Thank mongo2044, do you know what Bitrate the HomePod streams over Airplay? Is it AAC or ALAC?

The delay at start and during play/pause might be a hint on what AirPlay version is used on a particular setup.

I Jhon, How do you keep the Airport Express running in 2023? I have one and I haven't been able to use it in a while.

@mongo2044

9 ай бұрын

Mine bit the dust long ago. Power supplies swelled up and, dead. But the AE gen 2s have been great! Used for $10-$30 range. I think a clean one for $20 is a good buy.

What if my speakers have built-in Tidal streaming (LSX II), then the iOS app won't matter, right?

Love your work John and Brothers Thomas! As I know it HomePod 2 use Airplay when you pair it with another HomePod 2, and it sends music at 24/48 Bitrate over Airplay. This implies that the Apple Music on HomePod 2 differs from iPod and iPad. Is it the same with the Apple Music app on an Apple TV 4K which also is capable of 24/48?

@LencoTB

9 ай бұрын

Great question

There is one more mode when Apple stream losess - from Mac, when you in audio setting in remote control app (or in apple music app on Mac) select streamer as output device.Then you should get lossless audio stream, you can then control playback with remote app.

@paulinquebec

8 ай бұрын

I’ve noticed this stays as lossless too… but I have read in other threads that it’s only really indicating the source quality and upon arrival AirPlay 2 is still playing as lossy aac.

Apple could win over so many audiophiles if they just properly sorted out Apple Music lossless and made it as good as Spotify Connect

@NeilLavitt

9 ай бұрын

So true, the issue is that audiophiles are a tiny group and are not worth catering for. It may well get done at some point, but at this time, they are catering for the bigger group.

@mongo2044

9 ай бұрын

I think you mean *work* as good as (UX) as Connect. Apple Music in lossless is better sounding than lossy Spotify.

As a test this I sent a tidal stream (Airplay 2 - tick in white circle) via the iOS tidal app from my iPad via Air play to my Lyngdorf TDAI (Airplay 2 according to Lyngdorf website). The Lyngdorf tells me that it is playing at PCM 16 /44 so CD quality - I’m properly confused.

@tgp-2

9 ай бұрын

some amount of audio data is permanently discarded when encoding to a lossy file format (in this case, AAC) ... all compressed formats (whether lossy or lossless) have to be decoded at the receiving end and output to a format the DAC can use (in this case, PCM 16/44)

@sydlow

9 ай бұрын

That's because the Tidal App is sending it as Airplay 1 - which is the continuous stream. The app developer can specify AP1 or AP2, regardless of the hardware connection protocol - according to Brother Thomas.

Doesn’t the iPhone/iPad/Macbook handover the stream to the “speaker” device so it essentially directly streams from the source? Or does that only apply to Apple device like the HomePod or Apple TV?

@mongo2044

9 ай бұрын

Not always. Apple stuff, usually if you use the COST button or start by voice.

Your coffee technique is impeccable 😊

@DarkoAudio

9 ай бұрын

It needs work but thank you anyway.

@rosswarren436

9 ай бұрын

@@DarkoAudioOlaf's video of it is impeccable anyway. ;-) I had to pause the video and go make my own cup of coffee. Thanks.

How to change from airplay 2 to airplay 1 in ipad gen 9?

@higurashinerd

9 ай бұрын

Rewatch the video The developer of the App sets the mode on iOS hardware. Not you.

How do I know if I have Airplay 1 or 2? I have iPhone 13 and iPad 9 and second gen Apple TV?

Great video ❤ Does anyone know how I can determine whether an Apple TV 4K streaming to two HomePods 2 would be using Airplay 1 or Airplay 2? I fear it will be using Airplay 2 😢

Well, that clarified the lossless output from the iPhone to an AirPort Express gen.1 device, connected to a receiver. Assuming one uses Apple Music. How about Spotify’s song library? Is it also lossless , streaming at 44.1 , or just compressed high quality? I always thought Apple Music sounded best in my car, at home w amp + speakers, and with headphones. And can you get even higher quality if you stream from iPhone or iPad with Apple camera connect adapter and usb cable to the receiver ?

Hi everyone! Amazing job, John! Really usefull! Does anyone know, who is Brother Thomas? 😅 Im trying to look for him on the internet! Thanks!

I use my Apple TV 4K to stream Apple Music over Airplay to my Powernode 2i. I start it with a scenario in the Home app activating them to play an album or playlist which I change from time to time. I then use Control other speakers….. in the Controlcenter on my iPhone or iPad to manage the music playback. This works very good, even better now with IOS 17. I have compared the sound with Tidal, and I really can’t tell any noticeable difference. I have read that the HomePod uses 24/48 Bitrate when paired with an other HomePod. Can it be that Apple Music down samples to AAC when you stream over Airplay from an iPhone or iPad to preserve power, and use ALAC when streaming from an AC connected device like HomePod and Apple TV when power consumption is no issue. It would be interesting if you John or Brother Thomas, or anybody else, could try to verify this. As I say, Apple Music over Airplay from Apple TV to my Powernode 2i sounds really good and is super easy to operate with the Home app.

i keep getting pops or static like sounds when streaming airplay1 when i stop or pause the stream the pops in the music’s background stops. im using spotify. any ideas?

@mongo2044

9 ай бұрын

It’s your home wifi network. Move your router around and see if a new location helps. Pipes, ducts, wires, furnishings, and architectural configuration of walls are tricky.