I suppose the limited effectiveness of the stone and antler axes on larger diameter trees would push people to develop other felling techniques. Such as controlled burning, wedging, chiseling etc.

@MalcolmPL

2 жыл бұрын

Exactly. Most trees would be felled by burning the base, then hacking away the charred wood and repeating. The antler axe works very well for this.

@MrBottlecapBill

Жыл бұрын

@@MalcolmPL I've read that colonists would use the same techniques to clear farm land. You start by debarking the trees (spring is best). This kills them allowing sunlight through and you can plant around them, then take them down as needed for lumber or firewood. I assume many first nations people did the same thing since the colonists didn't have to use this method, they had metal axes. They still chose to because it was far more efficient and less energy intense for small populations. The only difference is without metal axes you would just burn the dead trees down........they're already dried out and come down a lot easier.

"Time well wasted"? That axe head is gorgeous. Reminds me of Primitive Technology's celt axe design. That antler axe doesn't seem like a good tool but would certainly be a good weapon couple with a shield

@MalcolmPL

3 жыл бұрын

Yeah, I really like ground stone tools. It’s just a shame that they take so long to make. I would have liked to have tested a celt for the video, as we used them historically, but the thought of another 60 hours of grinding put me off.

What if you combine the antler and stone axes? Maybe you could have a stone axe and fasten one large or several small antler blades to it. Or take an antler axe and fasten a large stone to the back side to give it more weight. Idk if it would be historical. But I'm sure it would look cool and hopefully function well.

@MalcolmPL

Жыл бұрын

There was one style which consisted of a small flint blade socketed into a piece of antler for strength.

That split axe is a beast! Interesting that just a bit of sisal cordage is able to hold the massive head firmly in place during use. I'll have to try this design sometime!

@MalcolmPL

3 жыл бұрын

You have to shape the socket on the handle precisely to fit the head, otherwise the cords will stretch with use and the head will start to wobble. Pine tar is useful if the fit isn't perfect. Some of the historical examples are only grooved on three sides, having a flat bottom edge, so that if the head loosens, you can just add a wedge to tighten things up.

@MakeItPrimitive

3 жыл бұрын

@@MalcolmPL Thanks for the info! I have seen two such axe heads on the shelf of friends with ties to Bolivia. Always wondered how they were mounted, as they seem far too heavy for the "wrap a split willow branch around it" method. Your video finally gave me an idea how they might have been used. Now I just need to find a suitable piece of rock ... and 60 hours of free time ;-)

White settlers often used a technique called "ringing" to save time clearing land - using an ax to cut through the sapwood all the way around larger trees. The tree remains standing but dies and loses its leaves. Eventually it dries enough to be easier to cut down or burn still standing. Do you suppose Native Americans might have used that technique when clearing a field? Given the effort required to cut down a tree with a stone ax it would seem like a logical choice.

@MalcolmPL

2 жыл бұрын

Only small trees were cut with the axe alone. The technique for felling mature trees that I'm familiar with is where you start a fire at the base of a trunk and char the outside. Then you hack away the charred wood and repeat the process until the tree is close to falling, then you do the last little bit with the axe. In a test I did recently the antler axe is very efficient for this on account of it's light weight. It's possible when felling a live tree that it might be girdled a few months beforehand, as living trees are pretty good at resisting fires.

Beautiful axes! The stone axe looks very nice.

At beginning of video, if you stuck wet clay above where you wanted to cut tree around tree, and started a fire at the base you can cut the tree faster with the stone axe faster as the tree burns. I think celts were used without fire,but stone axes were used with fire.

@MalcolmPL

2 жыл бұрын

Yep, but that wouldn't demonstrate the point I'm making.

You know something? I'm sitting here watching this man swing stone and antler axes at firewood, and trying not to cringe out loud. But then I realize that splitting firewood is a marvelous way to torture-test something like this. It can be so difficult to find people willing to make items like this, and then potentially destroy them with genuine tasks that obviously have the potential to wreck a lot of work. Furthermore, it looks like both the stone and antler axes shrugged off the "abuse" pretty readily. So not only is this a great peice of reference material, its also a display of excellent craftsmanship. Well done sir.

@MalcolmPL

2 жыл бұрын

The way I see it, if they weren't strong enough, nobody would have used them.

The antler axe is by far the most beautiful design of the three ❤️ And while it may come short as a routine heavy-duty tool, it seems the most useful for precision work, travel, and combat. It also looks effective for survival use in building fires or rudimentary shelters. By the way did you also make the antler axe yourself? If so, how long did it take you?

@MalcolmPL

2 жыл бұрын

The blade took a few minutes on a belt sander. The handle took about six hours.

Maybe you should try modding your antler one with a weight.

@MalcolmPL

3 жыл бұрын

That would work. But as far as I know it wasn't done. Lightness is the only advantage of the antler axe. If you wanted something heavy that cuts there are other designs of stone axe that would work better.

@forestgiest1380

3 жыл бұрын

But what if you needed a thinner blade for more precision woodwork or felling. .. huuuummmm??

@MalcolmPL

3 жыл бұрын

Stone axes can be made much thinner and sharper than my example.

@forestgiest1380

3 жыл бұрын

I suppose so.

i was kinda worried for your toes a minute there

Wonder whether they actually used an antler-tipped chisel and a wooden mallet to fell trees.

your videos are awesome. having been raised in a native american mueseum for the first five years of my life. in east North carolina, near Cherokee . i have always been interested in native american culture tech and history. also i enjoy fantasizing about pre columbian contact, life. i am interested to hear what you would have to say about the "vikings" arrival long before spain france or engaland.

root wood was used since historical people were usually more resourceful than modern people and they saw trees fallen naturally in landslides and storms as an opportunity

Finding the right tool for the job at hand

@MalcolmPL

2 жыл бұрын

Yep.

Native American history is very interesting because it provides a window into late neolithic/chalcolithic tools and weapons that don't exist in the material record in the rest of the world. it seems like rather than material science being a progression from worse to better materials. some of them have specific niches that each material had an advantage.

I know neolithic people didn't do this, but couldn't you just tie a rock to the antler axe to give it more weight?

@MalcolmPL

3 жыл бұрын

You could, I just haven’t seen it done. One thing that was done was making the handle larger near the head.

3:07 oof, all hail iron I guess. But I suppose it probably heavily depends on the craftsmanship and quality of the individual tools.

@MalcolmPL

3 жыл бұрын

Yes. I've seen stone axes made by people more skilled than myself. They cut much more effectively than mine.

Antler axe surprisingly good for making pointy wooden spear though. From soft wood.

What do you think about antler applied to green woodworking tools? Do you think it could make a passable drawknife for scraping off bark and some shaves for a pole lathe?

@MalcolmPL

3 жыл бұрын

Based on my experience, an antler draw knife would be excellent at removing bark from saplings or small branches. It would be less effective for peeling thick bark from a mature tree. It would also be quite poor for shaping the wood underneath.

@rasputozen

3 жыл бұрын

@@MalcolmPL Interesting. I thought maybe the speed of the wood turning on the lathe might be enough to offset the relative bluntness of the antler edge but perhaps not. I think a knapped knife would probably be worse for this purpose since it would be liable to chip and break frequently by the unpredictable battering from the spinning wood. Maybe there really is no common material substitute for steel for this purpose. Nice video btw.

@MalcolmPL

3 жыл бұрын

​@@rasputozen I just did a quick test on my lathe. An antler knife cut poorly and blunted quickly. I then tested a piece of antler that I had cut off at a 60 degree angle, it worked much better. Not anything like as well as steel, but borderline passable. You're probably right about a flint knife being too brittle. Maybe some skilled knapper could make a suitable chisel, but I doubt it. Bronze or copper would work, in places like Egypt the lathe predates iron.

@rasputozen

3 жыл бұрын

@@MalcolmPL That makes sense that the angle would be a big factor in the success of these unconventional materials. I hadn't thought of softer metals like copper or bronze for this application before but I could see how they might be preferable in a more primitive setup as they can be cold-worked more easily. Thanks for the insight and sharing your experiments, I love these primitive solutions and seeing how they can still be used today to solve many problems.

Nice video, well done camera work, nice not to have to listen to crappy music thank you!! I must point out, I don't think the native americans spent much time felling trees. Nature did that for them. Nor did they split much firewood as small branches gathered by the women and children. I dont think your time was wasted in any way. I also appreciate you making this video, it was interesting and was a very good experiment! Thank you for doing it and sharing your experience! I subscribed!

@MalcolmPL

3 жыл бұрын

Cheers for your kind words. But your assertions are not accurate. (Or at least, not universally accurate.) Us Iroquois weren't like the common idea of nomadic hunter-gatherer peoples. We had semi-permanent villages, large wooden houses and palisades, dugout canoes. We had reason to fell a lot of trees. Furthermore, fallen trees and brush tend to be a little rotten. Rotten wood isn't so good for making things.

Hay can you run a experiment to see how forest nations weapons hold ups to Norse armor?

@MalcolmPL

3 жыл бұрын

Maybe at some point. I think most of the armors used in the dark ages would protect against most first nations weapons. The only weapon I can think of that might have a chance at getting through mail is antler arrows.

@terrynewsome6698

3 жыл бұрын

@@MalcolmPL what about just gambeson?

@MalcolmPL

3 жыл бұрын

@@terrynewsome6698 The dozen layer of linen type of gambeson would be proof against everything except maybe blunt force. The two layer of linen with padding sort I imagine could be penetrated. I wonder how many layers of cloth it takes to break a stone arrow.

@forestgiest1380

3 жыл бұрын

Why specifically antler?

@MalcolmPL

3 жыл бұрын

@@forestgiest1380 Antler is very durable. A stone point shatters when it strikes anything too rigid. Antler might be strong enough to push open the rings like a bodkin point.

Interesting I always wondered about it thanks we have ancient people call the Anasazi who built ancient villages under the cliff they had logs for there roof it must to a long time to cut a tree

@MalcolmPL

2 жыл бұрын

Up here we'd burn the base of the tree and then finish it off with the axe, get the fire to do all the work.

@MrBottlecapBill

Жыл бұрын

@@MalcolmPL Yup. People don't understand that ancient survival is the epitome of work smarter not harder. These people were not as well fed as we are today in most cases. Everything they did was streamlined for the least effort and the most reward. Working too hard could literally starve you to death. Fire was easy to work with and of course in most forests there are usually plenty of already fallen over or half fallen over trees that you would harvest first.

Excuse me how did you make the antler axe I was thinking of making one myself

@MalcolmPL

Жыл бұрын

Get an antler, cut a broad straight section out using a hacksaw, grind with a belt sander or a rasp. The antler has a spongey core, you want to make sure that the edge of the axe does not include any of the core. I used a root for the handle after the style of the Otzi axe, a celt style handle might work better.

would the traditional method not have been to light a small fire at the base of the tree and tend to it unil finishing it off with the stone axe?

@MalcolmPL

Жыл бұрын

Yep. Burn, then chip away the charred material, repeat.

"be nice if in real life you could just reload a save" think this regularly

Seeing you rive logs barefoot is kinda nerve wracking haha

What would happen if you somehow affixed a rock to the backside of an antler ax? Would the extra weight help or hurt the performance?

@MalcolmPL

2 жыл бұрын

I can’t guess, it would have really weird balance, but I don’t know whether that would be a problem or not.

@UrsahSolar

2 жыл бұрын

@@MalcolmPL Wow, I've never had a channel reply to my comments so fast, thank you!

@2:28 would there be no way, to add a stone to the back of an antler axe, to add weight and double as a mace head?

4:12 you have split it to three pieces, instead of two. That’s extra +50% efficiency!

Antler axe looks more like a weapon than a tool, though I know that may not have been a clear divide. It's light, easily swung, survives abuse from being struck against things it can't break, is a nice shape to parry with...

@MalcolmPL

Жыл бұрын

I think I figured it out a little while ago, it might be for chipping away burnt wood as part of the process of felling trees. You don't need a very sharp edge for that, and in that application, the speed from the low weight is a boon.

@KartarNighthawk

Жыл бұрын

@@MalcolmPL That could definitely make sense. Burning the trees first changes the game a lot. Still, I'd be curious to see how effective it would be in combat, especially given how lethal those antler arrows you tested were.

What if you drilled a hole in the stone and put the antler axe head in it

@MalcolmPL

2 жыл бұрын

I wonder. I've seen it done the other way, where a sharp but delicate flint blade was inserted into an antler socket for better strength.

Do you sell those stone axe?

@MalcolmPL

2 жыл бұрын

Heck no, no one would be willing to pay what it's worth in terms of man hours.

Two types of axes, sir.

@MalcolmPL

Жыл бұрын

Three.

I've never cut a tree down in my life and at 85 I'm not about to start so I appreciate your explanation and demonstration of the uses of the three different types of axes throughout man's existence. I would question, however, you being in bare feet. Seems to me unnecessarily dangerous and even foolish for an experienced axe-man.

@MalcolmPL

2 жыл бұрын

The danger is in kicking something by mistake, proper stance means that the axe can’t possibly hit the feet.

@johneastman7991

2 жыл бұрын

@@MalcolmPL I'm still concerned that some youngster not as familiar with cutting wood with an axe will look at this; think that It's a great idea, and go out there in bare feet. Sorry. I don't care how safe you think you are, I still think it's a terrible idea.