always super interesting to note that both James Marsters and Sarah Michellle Gellar didn’t like the bathroom scene and didn’t want to do it, and Marsters mentioned that this was in the context of joss whedon not liking that spike had become so popular

@XKathXgames

Ай бұрын

Still canon. So in universe still happened and has to be taken into account when taking about the characters. You cannot say oh well the actors didn't like it and Josh is a bastard (which he is) to try and ignore its canon implications. All those things don't matter in universe.

@Liilliithh

Ай бұрын

He actually went on to add a clause to his standart contract so that he never has to do that kind of scene again.

@jamiehav0k62

Ай бұрын

pretty sure Joss had little to do with buffy season 6. it was mostly Marti Noxon as show runner at that point and he wasnt responsible for the bathroom scene though i guess he could have vetoed it if he wanted to. Comments with links get immediataly deleted but there's a marsters interview from Radio times May 2023 you can google with an explanation about it.

@babs3241

Ай бұрын

@@XKathXgames Yes, but I'm willing to forgive bad writing decisions.. I do think they needed to go as far as they did to push Spike into the choice he made, but they set it up very badly. Also, the writers had a reason to expect that people would see it as a nadir that would presage his re-ensoulment. We have been asked to sympathize with and forgive many characters who have done horrible things. Angel went on a murder spree, but when he was re-ensouled, the people who didn't want to forgive that were treated as automatically in the wrong. When Faith attempted to rape Xander, yes, we were expected to be angry with it, but as soon as she atoned, we were expected to forgive her. Later in S6, Willow goes on a murder spree, and the entire plot was getting her back, and not hating her for it. I don't think they thought through the implications of the realism of the bathroom scene, the length of it, and the fact that it was against Buffy, the ego of the show. I think the assumption would have been, "Okay, this was his nadir! Now, we'll redeem him and everyone will be thrilled!" (I think one of the writers even said she'd basically done this to a boyfriend who had broken up with her.)

@alicequinn505

29 күн бұрын

⁠You _can_ say that, since fan engagement is a huge part of the show. It's kind of like in GoT (no spoilers) there's a major plot point in season 8 that fans have a hard time swallowing, at least how it was presented. If a character or event veers so far off base that it makes the fans mad, even though it technically "happened," there are many implications that follow from that, that fans don't need to accept in their headcanon if it ruins their favorite character or their enjoyment of the show. Not to mention that they tried to backtrack the whole thing in season 7, and after a few mentions, tried to pretend what happened to Buffy was over and dealt with. I remember a panel even with the writers discussing how they regretted the whole thing and glossed it over in following episodes.

I'm so glad you touched on her friends living in her house, not helping to pay the bills. It's always irked me so much that they claim to love her, yet sit back and watch her struggle without lifting a finger to help. Giles helped as much as he could monetarily, and Xander helped by fixing what he could with the house and taking Dawn to school. But, Willow and Tara were so wrong. They even admitted to using up all of Joyce's life insurance while Buffy was dead! Ugh!

@justineharper3346

29 күн бұрын

I get that they needed a reason to introduce the struggles of young adulthood, but it is annoying. It’s like , come on girls? You can’t pick up a part time job somewhere? Cast some kind of money charm? Idk. Lol

@millersam07

27 күн бұрын

I have to wonder how the heck they spent so much in such a short period. I mean did Joyce's policy have a laughably small amount in the death benefit? How the heck did they even get access? I mean I'm assuming Dawn was the default beneficiary and being a minor the funds would have gone to her legal guardian. So what? Did they spend it all on legal fees to declare guardianship to keep Dawn in that home and not sent to live with her father? What court moves that fast? Buffy was gone for just a few months! Lol teen me never questioned any of this, but adult me is like Wait! WTF!

@debrakron9049

19 күн бұрын

I also thought it was insane that the council gave Giles a salary, but not Buffy, the one actually fighting! As for Joyce’s life insurance, my understanding was it went to Joyce’s medical bills. That could suck up a large amount of cash! And as far as who inherited Joyce’s estate, remember, no one knows Buffy is dead! The Buffy bot was taking her place so that people wouldn’t know the slayer was dead. But I agree that Willow and Tara should have contributed.

@MyClickTrackHeart

18 күн бұрын

@@millersam07 They used Buffy bot

You forgot to mention Spike and Joyce, the best chemistry ever !!!!

@ryanbtalkstv

28 күн бұрын

Love Spike and Joyce!

@danielbyrne5402

27 күн бұрын

You could say he had a 'passions' for joyce 😅

@robertnguyen9493

27 күн бұрын

He brought flowers for Joyce when she died.

@ninino86

25 күн бұрын

"I liked the lady!"

@user-sr2xf9ic1v

24 күн бұрын

That needs its own video lol

A lot of Buffys willingness to forgive Spike in season 7 was really not surprising when we consider season 3 and everything she was prepared to forgive Angel for doing while Angelus.

@EmoBearRights

22 күн бұрын

I agree she's willing to write off soulless actions of a being with a soul - understanding them as two different people. The truth is a lot more nuanced especially with Spike but it's true enough.

I always appreciate when Riley isn’t even an option in the fight

@valentynyevenko5047

Ай бұрын

It is obvious. Buffy is a necrophiliac, which means only corpses, even animated ones.

@ihh619

Ай бұрын

I like Riley more than soulless Spike. Riley has helped Buffy see that she can do better than a toxic vampire without a conscious. I only like Spike after he got a soul

@Liilliithh

Ай бұрын

@@ihh619 Well... Spike almost died protecting Dawns identity, Riley willingly got himself bitten by vampires because Buffy was focusing on her sick mother and not him. Riley would have made much more sense as a love interest if they were both 13.

@galehutchinson260

Ай бұрын

I like Riley. He had severe issues. Needed therapy badly. But he had a good heart and he was young. I doubt he had those same issues 2 years later.

@alicequinn505

29 күн бұрын

Riley has his own episode.

I completely agree being team cookie dough. The closest Buffy had to a healthy romantic relationship on the show was with Pedro Pascal's character in 4x01 😅

@SuperEkkorn

27 күн бұрын

Ahhh. Rip Eddie #gonetoosoon

I’m a huge buddy season 6 defender. She had so much trauma and PTSD, literally faced a lifelong fear of being buried alive (season one ref) and was in heaven. While she understands her friends choice she is still hurt by it. She’s not prefect and that’s what I’ve always loved about buffy, she’s real. She’s flawed.

Spike having great chemistry with all the characters is thanks to James Marsters he really brought charm, depth & charmisma to Spike & I actually thought he was British. He just did the Brisitsh accent so well & not a lot of Amercians can pull that off.

@ryanbtalkstv

Ай бұрын

I feel like I "learn" that he's American every few years. It's like my brain won't accept that he's not British lol

@DivaQuinzel

Ай бұрын

@@ryanbtalkstv It doesn't help that his real accent is southern, I often see British people go for the southern accent when they're trying to do an "American" accent so it just feels like he faking it 😭

@Muirmaiden

27 күн бұрын

@@DivaQuinzel James Marsters was born and raised in California. When he auditioned for Spike, he used a Texas accent.

@Yibambe.

26 күн бұрын

@@DivaQuinzel I actually think some southern accents are closer to British ones. But still loads different.

I’m a Spike girl. He was a good, if nerdy, person before he became a vampire. He seems to really need to put out the big bad vibe as a vampire because people were so awful to him while he was alive. Even without a soul,he cared about people despite his “I’m an evil guy” proclamations. Angel was a selfish, womanizing drunk before he became a vampire. Then he decided to stalk a 15 year old slayer after he was cursed with his soul. Angel is just creepy, soul or no soul. He gets better in his own series, but I still have the same issues with him. Angel without a soul is horribly mean and terrorizes young women just for the hell of it. Spike without a soul is completely different. The audience can sympathize with him because he is a caring person under the surface. I do think Buffy loved Spike. She just can’t admit it because of her own issues. She’s so awful to Spike. Watch the ending of Fool for Love and tell me you don’t feel for Spike. Her relationship with Spike was dysfunctional all the way around. They weren’t good for each other. You have a great comment in there. Buffy loved Spike, but she was never in love with him. So true. I hate the bathroom scene. I really wish the writers hadn’t done that. It seemed out of character for Spike. That scene traumatizes James Marsters to this day.

@robertnguyen9493

27 күн бұрын

I’m team Spike all the way, and I think he had some of the best character development. A great example of how to introduce a villain and slowly make them relatable and even sympathetic. That final scene at the hell mouth. Buffy: I love you! Spike: No you don’t, but thanks for saying it! Gets me every time

Buffy just deserved a healthy relationship.

@EmoBearRights

22 күн бұрын

I would agree but I'm just sure that's possible for her - she's got some big complications there.

None of them are ideal, but Angel (before he became a fully formed character) happened in an era in which Buffy was mostly built on the structure of 'monsters as metaphors for teenage fears" and Angel was this, but in an horizontal storyline: your boyfriend 'becoming another person' after you sleep with him' is a common fear for teenage girls. In S3 Angel does redeem himself and as much as their platonic relationship is cute, the fact that they could never have a 'real' romantic relationship remains the fatal flaw of their bond (and that's why "I Will Remember You' is so heart-wrenching) and its end was inevitable, leaving an idealised version of their love in both of their minds, with that kind perpetual limerence and obsession with 'the one who got away' that risks fucking-up all your future relationships (or is it just me having listened to too much of Taylor Swift's latest album recently?). Spike's obsession was definitely the basis of his 'crush', but it morphed through the years and when it happened that he was the only one able to connect with Buffy's major depression and PTSD after a near death experience, (I see the all jumping in Glory's dimension, being resurrected by her friends from 'heaven' as a metaphor for a suicide attempt she didn't want stopped) when being alive is what hurts, that relationship changed: it wasn't a love story, but it was a deep bond. And it ended in tragedy because while that was Spike's 'state' as a soulless vampire, Buffy began healing: I'm not too comfortable blurring the lines as someone who was raped herself, but their sex was always kinky and they approached each other in a way more typical of the way we saw vampires fucking than humans in the show, and while Buffy knew the difference between consensual kink and actually preying on another, Spike, who was still a vampire as much as his charm helped us forget it, didn't. That's an actual type of bloke too, also hard to forget, for different reasons, as they usually don't go and get souls in real life.

I am team Spike and Buffy especially if you’ve read the comics that continue the story but I do 100% believe that Spike was in love with Buffy and as a Vampire without a soul that took the form of obsession and very dark, bad, and unhealthy ways of expressing it but it was love. It was that love that drove him to get a soul so that he could be a better man and be someone who could be worthy of Buffy. We can’t compare him getting his soul back with anything any real person could do to redeem themselves after the bathroom incident because it fundamentally changes him. You say unsouled Spike and soul Spike aren’t that different compared to Angel and Angelous, but it’s because Spike was an anomaly as a Vampire, his humanity was able to fight the vampire nature more than any other Vampire but at the end of the day he still had that demon in him. If Angelous would have done that to Buffy in the bathroom he wouldn’t have cared or went on a journey to find his soul and be better, he would have enjoyed it and used it to torment her because the reality of Angel is that he was never happier than when he was Angelous, he enjoys being a vampire. It’s also why he lost to Spike when they fought over what they thought was a cure because Spike wanted it more. Also, I just feel Spike and Buffy had way better chemistry.

This is one of the many great things about Angel the spinoff, none of them needed eachother. Angel grows as a character forming his business and decent relations with others for the first time ever, when Spike joins they're now part of a big business with plenty to do and plenty of other people around, but they get to work on their own issues with eachother which were major parts of their characters, all the while they leave Buffy alone.

I had a guy push himself on me when I was a teenager. We’d gone on a couple dates, I really liked him. I said ‘no’ and he continued to push me into it. I think it was two or three time more of me saying “no” and trying to push him off. He stopped himself finally and realized what he was doing. It was something I never forgot and it would often play in my head. Years later I ran into him and wanted to confront him. We were in a professional setting and he asked me for my number. I gave it to him because I needed closure. We met for coffee and I confronted him. He said he had great shame about what he did. He apologized. He had said he had been struggling with a lot and had gone on a personal journey of self discovery. I got my closure.

@ryanbtalkstv

Ай бұрын

Unfortunately, the bathroom scene is one that far too many people can relate too. I'm glad you got closure.

At my core, I'm a Spuffy cause I first started watching the show as an angsty (and full of hormones) teen around season 5 and that was when Spike was at his best in character development. I blame the arrival of cable tv (our type of cable tv) in Brazil so late in the game, but I can't fall out of love with the ship. Also, Spike is my favourite character aside from the Seeing Red episode which I think should not have happened. To be honest, now that I'm in my geriatric era, I think Buffy is mature enough to be alone and feel fine about it.

Personally I dislike to mainly compare the r-scene to a "real life" scenario, because if we are honest in real life most people wouldn't have spent time with a renowned murderer (be it Spike or Angelus). So I do prefer when doing discussions about shows to stay in the shows reality. To me Seeing Red is really awful and I usually skip it on rewatches, but it makes sense and is in the lore of the show justifiable. Its not the first time Spike tried to push Buffy into having physical intimacy with him, even though she said no (6.13 Balcony scene). For me it wasn't a shock that he tried to do it, more the way it gets portrayed in the show being so gruesome compared to the other (attempted) r-scenes. In the story's reality it is 100% justifiable why he did this: he didn't had a soul. To me the soul is the moral compass to understand, why something is right or wrong. Which was shown so multiple times with Spike. In Lovers Walk for example, he comes to the conclusion that he needs to torture Dru to get her back to loving him. A comparable situation to Seeing Red, cause back then Dru was (more or less) his obsession. Only difference is that it got portrayed as a quirky vampire thing, not as something evil - which it actually was. Additionally I personally believe for both Angelus and Spike, as they are the worst vampires that ever existed, r-ing was a normal practice. Another thing I do want to add is how often the show depicts situations of (attempted) r-ing, and how different they get visualized. And most importantly just two of these situations were done, because the individual was possessed or had no soul. Anyways I would like to talk about the one that I think gets the least attention, but would be my personal nightmare. In season six Willow puts the forgetting spell on Tara, which to me always felt like the magical equivalent to drugging her. In any way, making Tara compliant. We know that Tara before the spell started working, was enraged with Willow. When they have physical intimacy in Once More with Feeling, I wonder if Tara really would have consented, if she wouldn't have been under the spells influence. This being done by someone with a soul and it being "disguised" as a cute, little love song, is kind of scary.

@chasnation

28 күн бұрын

I agree. This was a Slayer and a vampire. We do not live in the Buffyverse. All the characters did things that real life would not let them get away with.

Sarah herself is completely Team Angel.

@EmoBearRights

22 күн бұрын

Yeah and that's her opinion. I respect her right to that and understand it but it's still just her opinion. It has no more weight than anyone else's and you can and I do disagree with her.

@HalfShelli

22 күн бұрын

@@EmoBearRights Ummmm… I was stating a fact, not my opinion. You should probably take it up with Sarah.

@EmoBearRights

22 күн бұрын

@@HalfShelli If you were just saying it's fine but some Bangel shippers just love to say it someone means something more than it actually does. THAT'S what I take issue with.

@frankfreeman1553

20 күн бұрын

Same

The buffy angel virginity story is so genius, probably my favorite of the show. An amazing plot twist with such deep meaning

Omg I'm only one minute in, and I couldn't agree more. I'm also team cookie dough. I like both characters for what they are, but Buffy shines when she's on her own (in the second part of season 5, and in season 7).

I agree with the majority of what you say here. As regards the bathroom scene, here is my take. I don't feel comfortable with saying a storyline or plot point shouldn't have happened because it is a fiction created by a creator and I am not part of that process. But if I place myself inside the existing plot, I definitely don't think it should have happened, or that if Buffy was my friend I would want her to keep Spike around, or that he even needed that to happen in order to better himself - but it did happen, Buffy did make her personal choice (which is her right to do), and Spike did end up bettering himself. There is a quote from The Silmarillion about the existence of evil and the good things that come from it. Paraphrased, "beauty not before conceived" will be brought into the world, and "evil [will] be good to have been," "and yet be evil." We've all seen the power of a tragic event to create bonds between people/communities that are lovely. I hope that makes sense.

Actually, Spike didn't really start stalking Buffy with a relationship in mind until season 4, when she was in college of legal age (before that it was just vampire vs slayer). Also, even without a soul, he tried to be a better person. He failed a lot, but after the assault, he realized how terrible it was and went to get his soul back. Angel had a soul when he courted and bedded a minor, lost his soul, and started a psychological reign of terror, killing, and almost ending the world twice. In my opinion, Spike has the better moral character. Angel was a dirty old man, Spike was a lovesick puppy (with teeth). You really can't compare a soulless being gaining his soul to some dude going on a spiritual retreat to "find himself. Totally different concepts

@dreagonzalez6217

20 күн бұрын

In season 7 Spike didn't even apologize for killing Robin Wood's mom. He is only "good" for Buffy, not because he actually cares about people, it's an "I don't give a fuck about anyone but you" type of relationship. While Angel, with a soul... sacrificed his love for Buffy thinking about saving people (I will remember you), so.

I think the romance between Buffy and Spike was cut short with the end of season 7. In season 6 their relationship wasn't about love but possession (I agree with you about that.) but at that point both of them were kinda soulless (of course Buffy still had a soul but she didn't really feel it while she was entangled with Spike; when she became herself again, she ended things with Spike). However, in season 7 were both of them had a soul respective were in touch with it again they had some true moments where you could see how much both of them cared for each other and I truely believe Buffy started to fall in love with Spike. (Those season 7 moments feel much more intimate and meaningful than any moments Buffy has with Angel.) Therefore, I think their relationship would have become a love story if they would have had more time. (And I think it would have been a more healthy one than the drama loaded relationship with Angel.) --- Regarding the question how somebody who tried to force themselves onto another person: it's the context that matters. Buffy's and Spike's sexual relationship wasn't just violent. They had several moments where Buffy said No but meant Yes, at least in some way, and enjoyed Spike forcing/persuade her into intercourse with him. True, Spike could have noticed a difference between those situations and the bathroom scene but I'm fairly sure he didn't until it was too late. When he finally realizes what he was about to do, he's disgusted with himself. He not only traumatized Buffy but himself, too. So he sets out to get his soul back - not for his sake but to make sure something like the bathroom scene would never repeat. In short: What redeems Spike in my eyes is the fact that he isn't aware of what he's doing during the assault (that's how I view it, at least) but immediately acknowledges (on his own) that he was about to do something terrible and does everything in his power to prevent something like that happening ever again.

@theprodigal

Ай бұрын

Well William could also be a rapist so I don't see how that fits, a soul won't stop that. He just wanted a soul cos he thought thats what buffy wanted because of Angel.

@labrynna87

Ай бұрын

@@theprodigal Yeah, he could be. We'll never know. However, Spike was already disgusted with what he's done without a soul and in my understanding in the Buffyverse the soul is what gives you a conscience (or at least makes it more present). Therefore, I can't see souled Spike/William being a rapist.

@moonystic9417

Ай бұрын

​@@theprodigalSo could Tara. We don't really know, right? 🤦‍♀️ If you're gonna make a claim, please back it up with evidence. That's all. In this case, the evidence points to the opposite.

@theprodigal

Ай бұрын

@@moonystic9417 Well Spike is known for abuse and torture and killing girls dawn age, we know vampires personalities reflect their human self, William was a loser poet preying after girls who were above him, and also displayed stalker tendencies in his 'good; era. Tara has never matched this energy so your clutching at straws with that.

@moonystic9417

Ай бұрын

​@@theprodigalYou're reaching hard. None of it points to rapist, that's 100% your own baseless speculation. Abuse does not automatically equal rape and certainly not stalking - which wasn't even stalking, where did you get that from? And preying?? He would just write poetry about her. Willow used to write poetry about Xander, does that make her a potential rapist? William had a crush. On ONE girl (I remind you that he's a one-woman kind of guy to begin with), who FROM HER PERSPECTIVE was above him... You've got nothing to say about Cecily's mean behavior? Abusing men like that? Making them cry? Giving them a trauma? No? It's just William who's a big meanie because he comitted the awful crime of liking a girl? It was a crush, that's all. It was harmless. Pathetic but harmless. You're also mentioning that vampires reflect the personality of the person but we both know it never reflects 100% of it. It takes some and twists it. Liam was trash of a person but he wasn't a mass murderer. Fact is, William's was so gentle and loving that he still cared about his mom after he lost his soul. That part of him was not taken away. So if anything, you're only solidifying that William was NOT who you claim he was with that argument. Seeing Red also contradicts your claim: The SECOND Spike realized what he's almost done he was horrified with himself. He HATED himself. So much that he risked his life to get a soul to make sure he never hurts Buffy like that again. That part is in him alongside the demon. It was the demon with the tendency, not William. After Spike got his soul that tendency was gone, along with the control of the demon. The man was in full control - and he had NO "rapist vibe" whatsoever. THIS is William, with some Spike picked up along the way. Tara could have had tendencies we don't know about. That's my point. You THINK she doesn't. She put a spell on her own friends and girlfriend, that's not a very moral thing to do. WE DON'T KNOW. You wanna make a claim? Prepare *actual* evidence. Right now it's not even circumstantial, it's just you creating a story in your head. William/Spike could be Jack the Ripper himself for all we know. Who cares. The straw clutching is all yours. Anyone, ANYONE, could potentially be a rapist. Because you're not one, you become one WHEN you actually commit it. As far as we DO know, Spike is not and never was a rapist. Willow IS though... Looking forward for your case on her!

James Marsters spoke about the bathroom scene and how much he hated filming it. He said that the idea was from one of the writers who that actually happened to. It was one of the FEMALE writers and SHE was the aggressor. I hated that they chose to put that scene in the show. Spike was my favorite from the first even when he was trying to kill Buffy so I am Team Spike. I also watched from the beginning and have seen all episodes multiple times. I may be remembering wrong but Spike started stalking Buffy in Season 4 when she was over 18 and at college. Young yes but an adult none the less. I don't think Marsters was even a regular until that season. Also, and this is splitting hairs, Spike was much younger than Angel. Spike was about 120 y/o and Angel was more like 250 y/o. Obviously both old enough to know better but Buffy was very different by the time she started up with Spike and not a little girl anymore. I would concede that Buffy might not have been in love with Spike but he was "in her heart" however I believe Spike loved Buffy more than Angel did b/c he loved her w/o his soul and Angel didn't. Having said that, I don't think either one was good for her in the long run. Buffy should have been with someone normal which in the beginning she thought was Riley but he was too close to her slayer side. She did end up in a love story w/Spike in the comics so I guess that is that.

I largely agree, and am also 'team cookie dough' (though I never thought to call it that before). I will say that 'going and finding yourself' is not the same thing as gaining a soul. I don't think there is any corollary in the real world for that transformation. You're talking about a homicidal sociopath suddenly gaining a heartfelt, moral compass. It just doesn't really happen. This is one of the few truly supernatural aspects of the show.

On the Spike soul question… I look at it this way: Angel without a soul was basically a serial killer. He’d rip hearts out of women coming out of a shop (S2’s Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered), he killed Jenny and set her corpse up in a romantic stylized presentation (S2’s Passion), stalked Buffy and the Scoobies etc. While Spike without a soul was manipulative, abusive, and did force-himself on women. Both Angel and Spike (when soulless) were depicted as mentally-unstable characters just in different ways. I wouldn’t want someone I valued as a friend going out with either one of them in that context. Because she’d either be brutally murdered or forced. But when both Angel and Spike are ensouled - we see the more mentally stable (re: better/heroic) depictions of them. The men they could’ve been if not for being turned and/or their enhanced inner-demons. Angel is no longer a serial killer, but a man seeking penance and a true connection to the world. He’s ready to be heroic in order to atone, but that sometimes leads him into a savior-complex to mask his own insecurities about relationships in general. He wants connections but also fears them. Which is truly fascinating, if I’m being honest, for his characterization. Spike is no longer manipulative, abusive, and someone who forces himself on women - in fact the scene in 7x02 where he burns himself on the cross inside the church due to his guilt is highly symbolic of this. We see the man throughout S7 who’s still (deep inside) the William who was bullied and overly dependent on his mother trying to accept that neither he nor the soulless vampire he was is who he is today. The person he is now, at first glance, is a toned down version of that vampire but instead is more of an emotionally-open man. Towards the end of S7, where Spike tells Buffy that just spending the night holding her in his arms meant more to him than anything else could have demonstrates this further. As when he was soulless, he’d only depicted sex as meaningful in that context. Ensouled Spike is also Buffy’s most loyal soldier throughout S7, he never once tries to separate her from her friends but instead works with them to earn their trust and aid Buffy in any way he can. Even when Robin and Giles try to murder him - he defends himself and just goes back to following orders. The only time he truly tries to hurt the Scoobies in that season is when they kicked Buffy out of her own house. And the insults he uses are of a moral high-ground, not mere curses or slurs. He’s truly appalled at their actions (“She died for you!”), but presented in a way that also showcases his ever-growing (actual) love for Buffy. For further context/analysis: Angel states openly in S3’s “Dopelgangland” that being a soulless vampire doesn’t change who you are - it just enhances your worst tendencies. This combined with what he stated in S1’s “Angel” (The demon gets your body, but not your soul) adds to this. And in the comics that went on to continue the series after its ending: Spike tells Buffy that if he ever loses his soul - to kill him on sight. That he hates who he was without it. When he was soulless, he wasn’t capable of feeling any type of true empathy or love. Back then, he would’ve sworn he did… but he was wrong. It was a muted and pale imitation. And he knows that now due to having been ensouled for so long at this point. So, despite both Angel and Spike acting in different forms of toxicity when soulless - both are still the worst and most deranged versions of themselves. Both extremes, just in different ways. They’re demons trying to impersonate the men they’ve replaced in the worst way possible. Neither one is good at all for Buffy at those respective points. But when both are ensouled it is like, we’re meeting the actual men for the first time. Men who still have a lot of inner-darkness to combat, with the memories of what those demons committed still fresh in their minds. But the men nonetheless. With them feeling immense guilt towards those demons using their own worst wants/drives as an excuse to commit volatile acts. All while wearing their faces. With it being a mystical allegory for a split-personality, but demonstrated in a truly complex fashion. It could be argued that Spike’s innate humanity was so powerful that it even effected the demonic entity that replaced his soul - which resulted in his quest to regain a soul, thus ironically removing the demonic entity from its vessel and restoring the true identity. Which is why Spike (when ensouled) doesn’t spend decades in a guilt-driven and isolated state like Angel did. Because his inner-humanity even altered his demonic replacement’s conceptions to a certain extent, which allowed Spike an easier coping mechanism than Angel himself had/has. As for how both Angel and Spike address themselves both soulless and ensouled as themselves - to me, at least, is under the context of brain versus soul. The brain contains how we understand and view identity (including our own) while the soul is our anchor to humanity/empathy/love etc. So, it makes sense that despite when being soulless neither one are truly in the driver’s seat - that when ensouled they’d refer to that as something “they” did and not the demon that “got their body, but not their soul”. In conclusion, both Spike and Angel are equally depicted on pros and cons when argued on “Are they good for Buffy” with/without a soul. As for me, I do have a preference myself. But each ship does admittedly have its points to be argued for or against in great length. But when it comes to souls, as you can see from how long this comment is (lol sorry about that), it’s a lot more complex than at first glance.

Neither. I hope she makes healthier choices after Chosen. She sent Angel packing and she left Spike in the ruins of Sunnydale and she has a chance to live..I know, the comics and Spike is alive, still I like that smile at the end, it felt like she had sth new to look forward to, not the same old dudes as before.

@ryanbtalkstv

Ай бұрын

yesss, like girl there's a lot of other hot mysterious dudes in the world lol

Spike-no question!

@vikkidonn

Ай бұрын

Also what people never mention is the fact that in the movie which is a loose loose origin carried over in the show (a sequel/ reboot) Buffy literally fell for a dude named Pike…. A slacker loner who rode motorcycles wore a black trench coat and had a deep understanding of emotions and life. So….. Spike seems to have been a more fleshed out version of Luke Perry’s Pike. Joss has publicly stated as much. He said Angel is puppy love that fades. Spike is the guy you marry and build a life with.

@Muirmaiden

Ай бұрын

Agreed.

I’m a Bangel shipper, Buffy loved Angel more than she would love anything else. While I do love Spike as a character and I love the fact that he wanted a soul, but I honestly wish that the SA scene existed at all. The whole relationship between Buffy and Spike was toxic most of the 6th Season, but what disgusts me from some of the Spuffy shippers is the victim blaming mostly with Buffy. And to any of the Spuffy shippers who see my comment please don’t get offended and if you get offended I apologize. I love both Angel and Spike as a character but I’m not gonna put them on a pedestal, I don’t believe in putting anyone on a pedestal because I hold both accountable. I hold Angel accountable for what he did as Angelus, the only thing that bothers me as a Bangel shipper is how some have no empathy or sympathy for Jenny Calendar especially in the episode “Passion” when she gets killed because she lied to Buffy as well as the scoobies about who she was in “Innocence” and some even victim blame her for her death at the hands of Angelus which disgusts me and pisses me off because Jenny was about to make things right by restoring Angel’s soul. There’s a major difference between Angel and Spike, Angel was cursed with a soul for while Spike fought for a soul. But you made some excellent points. Love your channel and content Ryan Tracy G. Jackson TV

Im Bangel forever cause i think they really love each other. But there were always 2 points that i hate about the show 1 was that they never look for a way to bound the soul so Angel cant go bad ever and not even in his show and 2 that they break up for the spin off. But i do like the reasons that Angel give to Buffy and even when i was 16 when i saw the show i understand the reasons and putting aside the sex and soul part he was right Buffy deserved someone that can live in the light and grow old with her so Angel show that he really love her and let her go and ofcourse their love story was the example of love its not always enough no matter how big, deep, pure or epic it is sometime it can not be. Thats why if Angel get the prophecy i totally would have love to see them together as humans. Now i did not hate but not like Spuffy i never see the atracttion to Spike for me it was a fail attempt to repeat slayer-vampire love story, for me the most toxic relation ship of the show and honestly for me Spike was the one that suffer more and deserved better Buffy use him, beat him, bully him and more even as a demon i felt bad for him but i never see the love just obsession and with his soul i saw admiration and respect i honestly would have love them as best friends cause they have an understaiment but they were never in love. I do see why the people like them, the writers make the big bad demon fall for the good strong and inocent girl and he change for her and become good the biggest and most successfull cliche of love stories. I hate Cangel for me their fail attempt to make them a couple totally ruin the family concept that Angel show had. I love their friendship and for me they were the perfect example off man and woman can be friends. And lets not forget that Angel would face the same reasons for why he break up with Buffy, like he said to her in an episode "You move on I can't" And if Buffy deserved a life in the light and grow old with some one Cordelia deserved the same. I dont talk about the age gap cause if you are seeing a show about vampires they will always be the older people and the ones with the position of power and experience. Yet i do understand the legality and morality of the age gap. Even at the end of the shows with Buffy and Cordelia being 21. Cause lets not forget that Cordy "die" at the end of season 3. Sorry for my essay great vid

Honestly the entirety of the Spike and Buffy "romance" was disgusting. That episode in which they were fighting, destroyed a house and started having sex. That stuff was gross. I almost quit watching the show. I liked Spike but hated his relationship with Buffy. It was gross. 🤢

A theory about Spike regarding his pre vampire days. Cecily looks very familiar ...striking resemblance to a certain friend of Anyas who was killed by D 'Hoffryn to punish her in season 7. Was this a simple casting overlap...or was 'Cecily' really Halfrec all along? Would make complete sense if she was

You should do a video about how the Angel we first met differs from the one we all think of. I was taken aback by his earliest material when I first rewatched the series. He practically seems like someone else early in the series vs. later.

Neither are a good true match for Buffy but out of the 2 of them, Spike is better. Everything sexual Spike did to/with/at Buffy was when he had no soul. He literally had no soul or conscience to keep him from being bad. So it's unfair to judge him with human morals about things he did when he had no human soul. Angel on the other hand, romantically persued a child even when he had a human soul and had human morals. That is seriously more creepy to me. Both were toxic romantically for Buffy but both were great friends and allies for her in the end.

Angel had the chance to be human after a demon's blood made it possible. But he gave it up so that Buffy wouldn't get hurt or killed trying to protect him & in being made a vampire again, ensured that she didn't have to live with the memory of his brief time of being a human. He frequently did what was best for her. Things that tend to get ignored. And he's her first love. I could never see her with Spike, especially after Seeing Red. But I think really she shouldn't be with either of them. She should find someone who is human & actually closer to her own age, and not guys who are a century older or more & not actually alive.

@theprodigal

Ай бұрын

Thank you! there's absolutely no way creepy Whedon will gaslight me into believing Buffy fell in love with the face of the man who brutally physically and sexually assaulted her in her own bathroom. She deserved better than any vampire could offer.

@Liilliithh

Ай бұрын

He also groomed her, arguably rxped her (since he was 240 and she was 17), killed Mrs. Calendar, tortured Giles, got the Judge back and awoke Akathla. If seeing red is an argument against Spike, Angel killed Jenny.

@galehutchinson260

Ай бұрын

Or...here's a shock...she should enjoy the single life.

Team Bangel Forever

Buffy, Season 7, First Date: "Why does everyone think I'm *still* in love with Spike." Not to mention the series as it continues in the comics. Buffy most definitely loved Spike. It's not even that elusive in the series, but I guess if people aren't seeing a shallow, hyperbolic romance playing out (romance is not love), then they don't register the love story. The Podcast Still Pretty delves into the differences of a romance and a love story all the time, by professional story writers (psst....Spike and Buffy are the example of a love story).

I can try. The bathroom scene is written as happening because Spike is unable to comprehend Buffy as other. Also as happening because Spike has a one-track mind and vampires can't love wisely. Spike has been informed by Dawn that Buffy has feelings for him and he misunderstands what that means. With the soul, Spike gains empathy, and guilt. He recognizes how their relationship was wrong. He's completely able to convert to a platonic relationship with her.

I loved this. Thank you for sharing. Your perspective helped me look at this differently.

Good video, as always! I absolutely loved and fully agree with your takes on Riley and Xander. On this one, I see where you're coming from but ultimately disagree. To be fair, I'm also in favor of cookie dough Buffy! But I see the Spike situation a bit differently, and I think they COULD have a successful relationship later on. The way you perceive Spuffy is much how I did the first time I watched the show. Which disappointed me, because I loved Spike and was led to believe by a friend that I would be "more than satisfied" with the Spuffy in the show. So I kept watching and watching, waiting for that satisfaction. And when I finished, I thought disappointedly, "But she didn't love him! She NEVER loved him!" It wasn't until my last couple rewatches that I better picked up on a lot of details that suggest otherwise. There are facial expressions that Buffy makes, and actions which speak louder than words, AND subtle allusions in the dialogue--all of which I feel indicate Buffy falling in love with Spike. It's not as simple as "She says she doesn't so she doesn't." In season 6, there were reasons why she couldn't admit it, even to herself, and neither she nor Spike were in a healthy enough place for that to fully develop. But in season 7? That's love, in my opinion, and if they'd had more time, I think they'd have developed a wonderful adult romance. As for Seeing Red and regaining the soul, this is an element of supernatural lore that simply cannot be carried across to our world via analogy. BtVS generally does a great job of using storytelling for real-life analogy, but also treating the supernatural as literal. Case in point, Angel. Angel losing his soul and becoming Angelus mirrors, as you said, a lot of real women's experiences. Angelus then proceeds to stalk her, torment her, and murder her friends. But people generally understand that once his soul returns, the analogy is over, and he's good Angel again. You yourself said it's a positive thing that they get to try again and have that closure. But if we held re-souled Angel to the same "real world" standard as you do re-souled Spike, how could we possibly feel that way? Would I support a friend getting back with someone who assaulted them? No. I also wouldn't support my friend getting back with someone who murdered people while they were broken up, while actively stalking and tormenting them to boot. But neither souled Spike nor souled Angel did those things. So yes, in this show, the soul DOES make a difference. I think people just have a harder time processing that for Spike because 1. his personality changes less dramatically than Angel's does and 2. we meet soulless Spike before souled Spike, whereas for Angel it's the other way around. There's my two cents!

I am also team cookie dough!

Answer: NEITHER

This video was such a great recommendation! Looking forward to your other content

@ryanbtalkstv

Ай бұрын

I'm glad you enjoyed it! Recording more vids as we speak!

One point is that the show didn't let Buffy have a normal boyfriend. Everytime she tried to do it the guy was secretly not normal like Riley or even Wood, or the type of guys who made Xander look good in comparison.

I loved Buffy and Spike but never thought it was a love story. The bathroom scene was horrible and I have to skip it every re-watch. Growth after or not, there is no forgiveness for assault. Fine that he came back as an ally but that was legitimately triggering to watch. I still love James Marsters though!

Buffy and Angel - always and forever

I don't understand where do you took from that William was obsessed with that girl when he was human. He was in love, and the moment she rejected him he was crushed like any normal human in love. Also Buffy really loved Spike. You should read comics that continued the story. But for everything else couldn't agree more. Great video!❤

Well it’s against the law to have sex with a dead person so Buffy would be in jail next to Angel and Spike. It’s ridiculous trying to apply human laws to the supernatural world. Angel and Spike are supposed to be older. They are vampires not humans and Buffy is not a normal teenager. Angel didn’t groom her and actually he was kind of pressured into spending time with Buffy when he wouldn’t pay her any attention. Anyway, Buffy and Angel relationship was by far the better love story. They both loved each other equally and were happy being together. Of course the issue of Angel turning into Angelus was a huge obstacle, but as far as their feelings and commitment to one another, it doesn’t get any better than them. Angel was considerate of Buffy and made sure to show her how special she was. He gave her the ring of devotion, taking her ice skating, movies, he would listen attentively whenever Buffy was rambling on about her problems. Whatever Buffy wanted, Angel would give her. He didn’t view her as the slayer but a young woman. Spike never understood the side of Buffy that did want to be a normal girl with a normal boyfriend. He claimed to love her but never crossed his mind to take her on a date? As soon as Buffy got with Spike they started destroying each other. It seems fans view their sick twisted erotic sex drama as love. Far from it.

Oh I remember living through the whole Angel vs Spike debate real time!! If you thought the twilight debate fierce, it had nothing on this! I remember really being team Spike partially because of the punk rock aesthetic, but also the idea that the toxic people in your life could change. My mom was abusive (and she was a single parent) so I always hoped if she loved me enough she could "find a soul" and change. Ya'll we were all young and naive once! But it did resonate with me at the time, and now 20 years later my mom and I are speaking again and have a decent relationship. Not at all saying you should blindly stay with your abuser, but years after breaking off contact I did some change in my mother and if it wasn't for that last niggling hope I wouldn't have been open to working on a new relationship. Yes, you need to set boundaries in your life, but if there's not even the hope of forgiveness then that's a sad world to live in. I was sad when I didn't get the overt Spuffy ending I was waiting for. When the comics started being released I really hoped that was our chance. Now with the benefit of some years under my belt, I think the ending was perfect and I'm glad they didn't stay together in the comics (even though they gave it a shot). Watching Spike coming to terms with the fact that he loves her and it's not healthy to be the "dark space" she runs to for escape was perfect. Watching his growing relationship with Angel in the series, and later in the comics, all leading up to beautiful heart breaking moment where Spike asks Angel how he managed to move on from Buffy and he says he hasn't, and solace they find in the relationships not only with each other, but all the friends they made along the way. I think the open ending works better, and that space helped them all grow as people. Plus I love that the happy ending is Buffy and Faith being buddy cops together

Great first video! Looking forward to what you do with your channel

@ryanbtalkstv

Ай бұрын

Thank you!

Really got me thinking; thank you. I was the same age as Buffy when the show was running and the love story with Angel was really compelling - I remember being upset he left but as an adult I really see your point in his strength in leaving. I did not like Riley. I LOVED the storyline with Spike. I was depressed at the time and I really got the compulsion to be in that "relationship" - it was about finding contact in the darkest despair where no one else could see her. It wasn't right, it wasn't healthy, but it was needed by these two lost souls and SMG and JM played it really well. It made sense to me. Now... That bathroom moment... I was depressed at the time because I had been in that situation. I blocked the actual memory of that for over 20yrs because I couldn't deal with the trauma I suffered. I realise that I have also blocked that episode in my memory, although I know it happened. I am ambivalent about going back to watch it now. I do think it is a reminder that in his core, at that point, Spike did not have a soul, no matter how much he may have felt in love with Buffy - you're right, it was obsession, not real love. He couldn't draw the line between right and wrong. Doesn't make it right, but I suppose it makes it understandable, and understandable when Buffy has the strength to accept him post re-souling. I say "accept" rather than "forgive" because I can see how the circumstances of my attacker led him to think what he was doing was ok, but I am not sure I am always able to forgive (varies day to day) but I accept. I remember not wanting Spike to do it, because I believed in him and felt he had good in him, which ultimately his getting a soul brings out in him alongside his shame. It's every shade of grey, isn't it? And never black and white. But there is a truth about human nature in there which is why the show is so good and still resonates. I feel really nauseous and lightheaded now and confused. I love Spike but thinking about this has pushed him to be teetering on the edge of my attacker's box. Bother.

@ryanbtalkstv

Ай бұрын

Thank you for sharing these thoughts. At the core, this is what makes these relationships so impactful- they're so raw and relatable. Most importantly, they're flawed and nuanced. We see them through the lens of our connected experiences and the perceptions change as we grow and enter different chapters of life. This is why I love discussing Buffy. Thanks for sharing your perspective!

Yeah, I'm on Team Cookie Dough. Neither Angel or Spike were good for Buffy. I will point out one difference between the two vampires that many over time have either forgotten or didn't notice. Angel's soul was forced onto Angelus as a punishment, to make a truly evil vampire suffer forever with the guilt of his crimes, especially those against young women and teenage girls. His falling in love with Buffy was merely one consequence, something that otherwise would simply have been a typical Angelus cat-playing-with-its-food scenario, and eventually that is what happened during Season 2 of BtVS. Angel came to understand that he wasn't good for Buffy, that he was an old creeper who got lucky and had to let go so both he and the object of his affections could move on and become their own best selves. Spike, however, even as a human was messed up partly by his time and society and partly by his over-doting mother who clearly fostered an unhealthy co-dependent relationship with her son. At his core, however, he was a hopeless romantic, ever falling in love with women whom he put on pedestals and turned into his muses even though he never had any chance with them. As a vampire, those qualities turned dark-as dark as they could get-but he still retained something of his romanticism. When he realized what he'd done in that bathroom, that part of him, that tiny shred of humanity he'd kept in spite of himself, drove him to regain his soul in order to become a better person and therefore someone Buffy could not only forgive for what he'd done, but even come to love. It's still messed up and the reason they don't end up together in the story (though Joss Whedon's comic book continuation later got them back together), but that added dynamic marks another difference between the two relationships.

@Angelalex242

22 күн бұрын

It's interesting Angel basically recreates Buffy's setup in LA. The warrior he loved showed him how to be his own warrior.

For me, I can forgive almost anything if I see true remorse and that they’ve put in the work to change. Maybe that’s naive. But it’s not up to the viewer to forgive Spike, it’s up to the person that he’s wronged. If Buffy had never forgiven him, he’d be out! Also, I agree that Buffy had love for Spike but didn’t love him…like she had love for Riley but didn’t love him.

Spike loved Buffy far more than Angel in my opinion too much maybe it added a extra dimension to him❤

Re: Spike going on a spiritual journey and coming back changed Soooo... OK... let's talk about Oz

Great video! I’ve also been watching Buffy since 1997, and you seriously say what I’ve been thinking for decades! Followed immediately and also on TikTok!!

💯 cookie dough. I was young person who had relationships with older men and I really appreciate your commentary. The bathroom scene with Spike was brutal & I wish they had focused more on Buffy, rather than Spike as the abuser. Ty 😊

Buffy and Angel 100%. Period.

I have always interpreted the vampire with a soul, and the vampire without a soul, as two completely separate entities that use the same body. So, I really, truly, do not hold Angel or Spike with their souls at all responsible for any of the actions of their soulless alter egos. Zero. I view it as a demonic possession. They aren't responsible because they were not the ones who did the horrible things. It was done by demons who are no longer there when the soul is returned. I have trouble with Spike and that infamous scene. At the time the show was airing, I was a member of a Spike fan club, and one of the writers, Marti Noxon, was constantly insulting our fan club in interviews, comparing us to people who marry serial killers in prison. I'm not kidding, she literally said this crap about fans of Spike. She added that scene in, when it wasn't originally intended as part of the season. She explained in interviews that she did this to show the fans that he is still evil. And I always felt that was BS. Even though the show had it happen, and the characters reacted to it, something in my brain refuses to accept it. A horrible fan-fic writer did that, and my heart doesn't accept it. TBH, in my heart, the show really should've ended with season 5. It was a perfect ending, and everything afterward diminished that. I've been really enjoying your thoughts on this show!

@EmoBearRights

22 күн бұрын

It wasn't Noxon it was David Fury and I've never felt he got Spike or his fans. It's like I hate how dismissive people are of us - do they not get that we don't understand the difference between fiction and reality or what the metaphor is? Yes I do think they needed to be break point in season six where both us and Spike realised how incomplete he was without a soul but I do think it needed better and more sensitive handling than Joss was capable of.

@angiep2229

22 күн бұрын

​ I remember Noxon specifically. I was there, a thousand years ago, lol. I'm old. It being both would make sense. I was in the "Bloody Awful Poetry Society" fan group, which specifically wanted to see Spike redeem himself. The show runners really didn't seem to like our interpretation of the show, for some reason.

ANGEL AND BUFFY ALL THE WAY❤❤❤❤❤❤

It was quite a long time ago now when these aired, so I don't quite recall my original stance on Buffy and Angel. But I think I liked them together up until he turned evil and killed Jenny. It was hard to see them trying to work things out after that. And especially after seeing Angel in his own show and knowing what he's capable of even with a soul, this is a man who needs to stay single. (Although I did like him with Nina. That was a far more grounded relationship.) I never liked Buffy and Spike together. The bathroom scene only justified all the reasons why I never wanted them together. After he got his soul, good for him, I'm glad he's working on himself, but I still don't want him with Buffy.

3:48 totally thought you said “call of booty” 😂

I never liked either of them as love interests for Buffy. As characters, they’re fascinating.

Don't forget IWRY on Angel's show! There was another 'what if' Angel became human....

Spike protected abs loved her without a soul.

Supporting your channel, keep the good work man

@ryanbtalkstv

Ай бұрын

Thank you! I appreciate the love!

@krisgrym

Ай бұрын

@@ryanbtalkstv 🤗🤗🤗🤗

For team “but he got a soul”: let’s wander over to Angel where they make it clear in multiple plot lines that Angel is still responsible and experiencing consequences for everything Angelus did. Angel was a more mature show. Also Angel and Spike had the best chemistry ever short of Joyce and Spike.

@babadoudidadouda

Ай бұрын

Is he responsible, or does he feel responsible? Angel with a soul was not in control of what Angel without a soul did, I think both shows made it clear, but he still remembered his body doing those things, and the feelings and thoughts he had when he "was" Angelus. The latter is not completely separated from Angel, because he's a corrupted version of him, but that doesn't mean Angel is responsible for Angelus'actions, despite the (unwarranted) guilt he may feel. This reminds me of Superior Iron Man, who was a Tony Stark who, through plot magic, had his moralities temporary inverted (good became bad for him and vice versa, more or less) and thus became a villain (or you can go with the Hal Jordan and Parallax fiasco as an instance of "did terrible things while they weren't themselves/in control of themselves"). Once he came back to his normal self, he probably felt a lot of guilt from his Superior self previous actions. Still doesn't make him responsible, as his normal self, for those actions.

@Angelalex242

22 күн бұрын

@@babadoudidadouda The Powers that Be make it clear he has work to do as a warrior/Champion. There is a reason for that.

The closest to not having a soul and then gaining one in real life would be someone with a mental illness who later gets treatment. Would you judge them for what they did when they weren't in control of themselves?

Yesss you’re on KZread! I grew up Bangel because as a kid I couldn’t see the problem with the age gap and only saw the romance. As an adult I value Angel/Cordelia much more because it feels like an adult relationship between equals.

@ryanbtalkstv

Ай бұрын

That's how it was. Back then the young girl/vampire trope had everyone in a chokehold lol I recently started rewatching Angel. I was always a Cordy fan but love her even more on Angel. Looking forward to getting to the Angel/Cordy part of the show!

@METerrell

Ай бұрын

There's an huge age gap between her & Spike too, as well as Angel & Cordelia. Spike was over a century older than Buffy.

@vikkidonn

Ай бұрын

@@METerrellyeah but he didn’t kiss, or deflower her while she was literally 15/16 and barely understanding life and death or basic chemistry….. at least she was more of an adult and lived life by the time spike even shows up or by the time there was feelings

@charenzo95

Ай бұрын

But we know realistic there can never be a 200 year age gap between couples. Vamps technically are the age they are when they're turned forever. They've just continued to exist but not to live. Now if you were turned at 30.... super yuck! That might mean you were a p.d.o. when you were alive. But heck, monsters will do anything.

@EWDMITCH

Ай бұрын

I didn't think angel and Cordelia had enough chemistry to be romantic. I always wished they never even teased that. They were good friends. Why couldn't they just leave it there?

So True Blood had a moment in season 4 (which didn’t last all that long but still lol) wherein Sookie tells Bill and Eric that she needs to move on from both of them and find her identity on her own. Similar to Buffy's situation, both Bill and Eric have preyed on and manipulated Sookie in some way or another, and in one moment of clarity, she made the logical decision to find peace. Buffy absolutely should have done that, but she couldn't, which is why Angel left. As for Spike, the argument could be made that he took advantage of Buffy way before that bathroom scene by being the shoulder for her cry on with obviously not platonic intentions. I think Spike did love her, but he didn’t know how to love anyone without hurting them, whether he had a soul or not and was no good for Buffy as a result. Tldr, I am also team Cookie Dough. Both Angel and Spike tried to lock her in while she was weak, young and fairly naive and while she was just learning to find herself. Pack them both up lol.

I liked Spike's redemption arc after the bathroom scene, I just wish the bathroom scene didn't have to happen. He was my favorite character up until that point, then I hated him for a while (whiny-guilt-Spike is worst Spike), then I liked him again when he got his head right after Robin tried to trauma-slay him. His re-ensouling was different than Angel's, he was still evil (kind of) after he got sorted... kind of like Vegeta (DBZ) anti-heroesque.

I am a big hater of season 7, partially because of how they handled Spike. He was a popular character and they clearly didn't want to change him. In the episode, where Buffy departs to the past to learn about creation of slayers, him being able to be violent again is treated like a triumph which is just so wrong on so many levels. There was a potential (no pun intended) to do so many interesting things about him, but they just didn't want to.

Another perfect video

@ryanbtalkstv

29 күн бұрын

Thank you!

So I never understood why spike with and without a soul is the same thing while angel and angelus are night and day lol

Angel lost his soul and became evil. Yes, he was violent with her. But so was Spike. Spike tried to SA Buffy. Spike isn't better than Angel. Both are different. But also similar.

I am the odd person out most likely I could but I would not forget it. But I watch action and how actions and how the change/truly pattern change. I truly don't se being in love with Spike, it was passion of sorts but not love.

Nawl frfr! Justice for season 6 Buffy! Poor baby went through hell. I've been watching since the shows air date and as I've grown older season 6 has become my favorite.

@RyanBTalksTv Have you ever looked into the roots of Buffy the Vampire Slayer? Have you ever seen the similarities between Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Sailor Moon (the characters, the storylines). Buffy = Sailor Moon/Serena/Usagi Tsukino Angel = Tuxedo Mask/Darien Shields/Mamoru Chiba Giles = Luna Scooby Gang = Sailor Guardians Dawn = Sailor Mini Moon/Rini/Chibiusa Willow = Sailor Mercury/Ami Xander = Sailor Jupiter/Makoto Kino, Naru, Umino Cordelia = Sailor Mars/Rei Hino Anya = Sailor Venus/Minako Aino Faith = Uranus/Neptune Glory = Sailor Galaxia Hellmouth = Chaos Slayers = Senshi And then when you look deeper, there are similarities between the story of Buffy and the ancient goddess Inanna. Inanna and Dumuzid. So in other words…both are inspired by the ancient tales of Inanna. The ancient moon goddess. If you watch the sailor moon series, eventually you will find that the Tuxedo Mask character/Mamoru is representative of the sun. Ancient sun god and moon goddess. If you delve even deeper, you will find that all the ancient pagan religions are based off of the sun god and moon goddess. This goes back to the idea of superhero being a modern repackaging of the ancient gods. The movie Handcock plays on this idea (Hancock being Zeus/Osiris…with an eagle companion. His wife and sister was Hera/Isis). With Wonder Woman, she is Diana (Diana being another name for Artemis, the moon goddess. Ishtar being the moon goddess with the 8 pointed star being her symbol. Wonder Woman has an 8 pointed star on her forehead). Hollywood is repackaging the ancient pagan gods as superheroes.

If there's one thing this show needs praise for is how it how realistic the relationship dynamics situations in the show and I credit Whedon for allowing the writers to incorporate their own experiences.

Bangel is a solid no way for me. An adult bedding a teen may be ok in America, but around here is a crime and a real problem: it's rape by law, pure and simple. Spuffy was, again, really bad: she beat him to a pulp, brutalized him, he almost sex assault her. It's really bad. Ensouled William and Buffy is fine: he treated her well, reassuring her, and she corresponds to his love as a young adult. No problem here.

@Liilliithh

Ай бұрын

I would also point out that Spike got his soul back through his own will, he had to fight for it to become a better man... Angelus??? awoke Akathla .

@eduardofilippi7698

Ай бұрын

@Liilliithh Spike was a strange demon, that is for sure. The chip broke him, and the passion for Buffy finished the job. The soul he searched mostly for himself, imho out of despair: Can't be a monster, can't be a man. Otherwise, that broke love for Buffy would be his ruin.

@Angelalex242

22 күн бұрын

Incorrect. Buffy is 17 when the sex occurs. California's age of consent laws are 18. Show takes place in California. You cannot claim 'well it might be legal in your country but....' It is by no means legal in that state.

I'm team Spike but i get team cookie dough. I'd be ok with all of them finding other entities who got them.

I always liked Spike as a character. He hilarious. But I never shipped him for Buffy.

Team Cookie-Dough all the way!!! Having said that...I can't help but wonder what it would be like if, many years down the road, a fully-baked Buffy Summers encounters a fully-baked Parker Abrams, who has matured into a much more respectful and respectable person...

@EmoBearRights

22 күн бұрын

I'm sorry but Parker is more likely to have tried his stick on the wrong girl and got killed or turned by them. I'm not convinced men like Parker change.

The most repulsive thing to me about Seeing Red is where the whole bathroom scene 'idea' came from. According to Marsters, it came from a female writer who had been in the same situation, except she was 'Spike' and her ex boyfriend was 'Buffy' and she tried to s*xually assault him after they broke up to 'save their relationship'. Like...that writer should have been prosecuted for attempted SA, not hired to write for a series about one of the most beloved heroines in television.

@vikkidonn

Ай бұрын

Yeah but also didn’t he personally have history with the topic? Like he was threatened if they didn’t do the scene if though no one thought that was the way to deal with what was happening. Then again…. Buffy did the same thing throughout the last two seasons to him…… which is why she immediately told everyone to let it go. Which…. I think you can make such a chain of events make sense and take something from that introspectively speaking. HOWEVER I think Joss messed up as the audience grew up with buffy as their idol. There are grown adults still to this day that can’t and refuse to accept Buffy EVER had feelings for Soike and Refuse to believe she willing had sex with him several times. And refuse to believe she EVER saw him as even a friend or someone worthy of forgiveness……. Because after killing Angel she never forgave him….? It’s strange how things you’re exposed to as a child alters the way you view the world. I see both sides. Seeing red makes sense narratively, however given the over all plot and what happened that episode it was in poor taste that didn’t actually need to happen to get to the same end point. In fact her rejection alone would have made spike change without the realization that the demon may push him to hurt Buffy. Which he wasn’t actually trying to do. He literally rants about the fact he COULDNT do it, and the fact he CANT be anything else but that monster. Buffy at several points admitted to having feelings for Spike and simply didn’t want to repeat mistakes. It wasn’t her focus at all. By the time she was ready he was over it and didn’t believe it.

@spikesecho724

Ай бұрын

That's quite the exaggeration from what I always pictured in my mind.....I don't think the real-life inspiration for the scene ventured into assault territory. It was just a harsh rejection and shoving away when out of desperation she tried to fix things with sex. But neither of us was there, I just always imagined it differently. Certainly nothing to prosecute. Just a very low moment in her life that was used as inspiration for the scene and Spike's mindset.

@vikkidonn

Ай бұрын

@@spikesecho724 yeah which is to say it was abusive but never meant to go that far….. it’s clear in the scene as well and both he and buddy verbally acknowledge he wasn’t actually going to do it. The problem is that in the moment Buffy said he would have but then again she repeatedly would find reasons to not be with him. This was another excuse…. Hence the almost immediate forgiveness and telling Xander to let it go.

@alicequinn505

29 күн бұрын

@@spikesecho724Yeah, same, it's not that deep.

The soul thing? So, I do find it interesting that Spike getting his soul back doesn't justify or excuse his prior actions, but Angel getting his soul back does. Perhaps it's a misstep, but you kinda redeemed Angel for torturing and killing Buffy's friends, but Spike doesn't get redeemed? Having said that, there is no justification for what Spike did to Buffy in that bathroom. However, I've always thought that the creators of Buffy use the soul as a kind of moral compass. Without it, a person might know intrinsically the different between right and wrong, they just don't care. Kinda like a sociopath, and they just can't help it. But, with the soul, they are more sympathetic and empathetic to others, and as such will behave more morally. This is how I believe Spike gets redeemed/forgiven once he gets his soul back. He couldn't help being who he was before the soul, but after the soul he could, and he did.

@ryanbtalkstv

29 күн бұрын

I think it's interesting that you heard me say that Angel getting his soul back redeemed him when I never said that all. I didn't even kinda say that

i am a Spike fan. Angel can have Buffy. They deserve each other. i was never a fan of either of them, tho i did watch the shows (actually i couldnt get thru seasons 3 and 4 of Angel). they just arent my kind of characters

They're both good in different ways.

Team cookie dough definatly. I think both of them where steps on the road to huffy growing up but long term I think she needs someone a bit less sully(angel) or narcissistic (spike). I know they boh did alot for her especially with spikes soul but she never asked for any of that and in fact it could all be viewed as creepy through certain lenses

For me personally i feel that angel and buffy relates to that first love we all encounter 'the one that got away' so to speak. The first love that makes you question everything about yourself once its over......the one that you will never fully get over. Spike and buffy is the one that you know is really bad for you but at that point in your life you need it to help you get through a certain trauma. Spike came to buffy in a time when she needed to feel something different and he gave her that. I dont agree with the outcome of the bathroom scene but it kind of needed to happen to snap buffy back to reality. She wasnt dealing well with coming back to life and her mums passing and she quite famously says when she was dead it was peaceful but being the slayer isnt a peaceful life and she needed that trauma to bring her back to fighting power. Thats my opinion anyway. I love the fact that we are still talking about this show so many years after its ending!!! It was a phenomonal show!!

It was always to be spike but unfortunately joss hated the character, he only kept him due to fan demand but james marsters was subjected to pretty harsh times through joss as a result and dispised doing the grape scene, so it makes this and uncomparable mess tbh

I wish Spuffy happened after Spike got a soul. I never once shipped spike with Buffy before that, it was too toxic. That's why I like Bangel more.

@moonystic9417

Ай бұрын

Read the comics. Buffy and Spike start a serious (and healthy!) relationship that I'm sure you'll appreciate. She's pretty much done with Angel. By the way, Bangel was pretty toxic, it's just that it was depicted as romantic. As an adult I see it now (I used to ship them).

@ihh619

Ай бұрын

@@moonystic9417 Angel without a soul was toxic but the one with a soul isn't. That's why countless people shipped them, and why Sarah Michelle Geller said she prefers Bangel

@moonystic9417

Ай бұрын

​@@ihh619 I'm not talking about Angelus, I'm talking about Angel. Angel was literally a walking red flag. Let's put aside the age gap thing. Angel was possessive, jealous, controlling, he wouldn't respect Buffy's boundaries, would treat her like (and see he as) a kid, help her manipulate her mom, friends and Giles; he talked shit about women ("all dull, Buffy is not like them"); when Buffy wanted to rant, Angel would go "kiss me" instead of listening to his damn girlfriend and he'd dismiss her feelings and kiss her instead of comforting her when she was scared and upset... They'd rarely just talk. 95% of their time together they'd make out instead. Buffy I understand, she's hormonal, but Angel? Plus, Angel KNEW this was wrong from the beginning, yet this *adult* let it happen anyway and only left after S3. Very selfish. Angel has also pushed Buffy to say if she loves him, probably before she was ready. He hit Buffy - twice! There's also been mistrust - Buffy didn't trust Angel not to cheat on her w/ Faith, she had to try to read Angel's mind. And lastly, as Dawn tells Riley, Buffy would cry a lot with Angel. And we see that, indeed, the two were much better off APART - Angel actually started smiling and laughing once he left. Buffy, too, grew as a person. I'm sorry but that's not a non-toxic relationship. And realistically, I see no way for it to NOT be non-toxic when we're talking about a young, bright girl who's dating a dark and broody older man. That's a perfect recipe for toxic even without Angel being a walking red flag. Much like a relationship between a depressed young girl ashamed of her feelings and a soulless vampire. Buffy and Angel never had a real connection... Otherwise he would know that Buffy's eye color was NOT blue and he would NOT be "okay" with not seeing the so-called love of his life ever again after she dies. Buffy and Spike were toxic only due to the circumstances of the time - the comics prove that. And that's the main difference. Buffy and Angel were and always will be toxic. Because they're wrong for each other. Countless of people? Let's be accurate here. Yes, there are Bangel shippers out there. Many. But they're in the minority. The vast majority are Team Spuffy. Many of them have actually switched from Bangel at some point because, to us, Spuffy is better. Is that an indication? SMG too is in the minority, other cast members are Spuffy shippers (to name a few: JM, AH, Marc Blucas, the Trio...) and others ship Angel w/ Cordy. SMG is the only Bangel shipper, and you know what? She's not even a good indication since she never watched all the show and she's proven that she doesn't even know it very well (look up the Buffy quiz they gave her, here on youtube - she can't even answer the Angel and Bangel questions). But so what? It's irrelevant. I really don't understand this argument. SMG is an actor, she's not Buffy. And she was wrong - again, check the comics. Not only that, pretty much the entire writers team are Team Spuffy. Even the one (David Fury) who used to be the biggest Bangel shipper switched teams by the end of it. If math is an indication, I'm afraid it's not on your side either.

@ihh619

Ай бұрын

@@moonystic9417 Spike being toxic was because of his zero conscious, no soul state. That's why I said that their relationship shouldn't have happened before he got a soul. Because of that, it ruined the ship for me and many people. He's done so much to hurt Buffy but people didn't care because he's entertaining. For many episodes he stalked her. He broke into her home, took pictures, stole her clothes to smell later and build a shrine of her. When he confessed that he had feelings for her, he tried to force Buffy to say she felt the same by threatening her life. He told her that if she didn't give him a chance then he would let Druscilla kill her. In season 6 he tried to isolate her from her friends by saying that she's too dark of a person to be around them and that only he understood her. The emotional and physical abuse in season 6 was icky. The bathroom scene spoke for itself and the show decided to focus more on how Spike felt about it instead of how Buffy felt. Not a single moment between them before season 7 was romantic. It got so bad that Sarah Michelle Geller wanted to quit the show because she felt it let her character down. The actor who portrayed Xander said in a interview that he and Sarah had asked for a Buffy/Xander romance in season 7 but were turned down. Complain about Angel all you want but he was written how the lead male was supposed to be in the 90s. He wasn't perfect and was constantly fighting with the demon within him but the moments they've shared in the show was more meaningful than what she had with Spike. Spuffy shippers know that, that's why they decided to focus on the comic books because they don't have much else. Buffy said that she never loved anyone else as much as she loved Angel and Sarah agreed. As someone who portrayed her character for years, she understood her character more than the fans do.

@moonystic9417

Ай бұрын

@@ihh619 Yes, exactly. That's what I'm saying. The only reason Buffy and Spike were toxic is because of the circumstances of the time (which included Buffy's depression, it wasn't just the fact Spike was soulless). But it was only going for a few episodes. That's not the case with Buffy and Angel. Buffy and Spike have moved on from there. They've healed. I can tell you for a fact that it didn't ruin it for most people. Only a few. The vast majority understand what Buffy understands - that they weren't them. That they're not the same people. I noticed you're only mentioning Spike, but Buffy was problematic too. She was physically, mentally and sexually abusive toward him. In fact, she SAd Spike and did things to him without his consent. Which, again, happened because she was depressed and ashamed of her feelings for a soulless demon. BTW the comics actually cover the SA thing further, including from Buffy’s feelings POV. Another difference between Spike and Angel, and why Spike is the better person, is Spike learned from his mistakes. He's observed Buffy's reactions and changed his ways. He stopped stalking and breaking into Buffy's home, stopped stealing her stuff (I remind you that she stole his lighter), got rid of the shrine, turned on the bot... Angel, who was well-aware of his ways, never stopped. Never acknowledged HIS behavior (the stalking, the entering into her home/bedroom uninvited, the SR, etc.) So your argument once again helps Spike's case instead. If you really pay attention, Spike would always act off of Buffy: If she was nice to him, he was nice to her; if she was mean to him he was mean to her; if she'd hit him he'd hit her back; if she kissed him he'd kiss her back. That's because Spike, while capable of change, was still limited due to his lack of soul. What's Angel's excuse? The bathroom scene in particular happened because Spike thought this was another one of their dominance games. Buffy would always say no but then say yes, she'd say he disgusts her but then go back for more, would kiss him say never again but then kiss him again... By seeing Red, Spike was beyond confused. He got used to Buffy pretending to not want him, but when Dawn tells him Buffy was hurt seeing him with Anya he realizes he’s still got a shot with the slayer. So he tried what’s worked before (much like what’s worked with Drusilla). I remind you that Spike is the one who wanted a real relationship while Buffy just wanted sex - and she wanted it violent. She was the initiator. And I'm not saying this to give him an excuse, because there’s no excuse for SA, this is just how and why it went down the way it did. But once again, you're only helping my case - Spike didn't realize what was happening until after Buffy kicked him off. The SECOND he realizes he was horrified with himself. He felt great remorse. He then set out to the other side of the world and risked his life to regain a soul *to make sure he never hurts Buffy ever again.* He's not only the only character on the show who's actually acknowledged they committed SA, he's also the only one who's gone far and beyond to make things right (including Angel. Including Willow!). That says a lot about his character. Which is why he deserves forgiveness and why most people still ship them. *"he tried to isolate her from her friends"* -No, she isolated herself. Buffy climbed up to the balcony, away from her friend, on her own accord. SHE, on her own accord, would go to Spike. She didn't want to be around the people who brought her back to life or the responsibility of taking care of an annoying teenager and other responsibilities. Being with Spike made things simpler for her. It kept her alive (through bad means, granted). Because he WAS the only one who understood her. Spike just took advantage of the situation, but not out of malice but because he believed he was doing it for her own good. He offered her a place if her friends turn on her. He wanted the best for her. He wanted her to be happy and alive ("Let yourself live, already." " Might actually have to be happy if you did." "you have to go on living." "It's nice to watch you be happy."). I agree that his way of showing it was harmful. But again, soulless. What’s Angel’s excuse? *"Not a single moment between them before season 7 was romantic."* -Should there be? That season was for them to heal. It was too early for more than that. I also don't see the need for romantic when they shared much important things: They grew so much closer (best friends even), they relied on each other (Spike became the only person Buffy truly trusted), Buffy rescued Spike, Spike gave Buffy strength and stood by her side when everybody else abandoned her, they believed in each other, Buffy gave him a place to live and helped him back on his feet, they spent what could have been their last night on Earth in each other’s arms, Spike scarified himself for her... Should I go on? Isn’t that much more meaningful? We know how much it meant to Spike and Buffy. Meanwhile, Buffy sent Angel away (before cuddling with another man), without even telling him she loves him - despite the fact that this might very well be the last time they see each other... Is this true love? Is this real connection?

Oof. The honesty.

Great video! I think both relationships are very problematic. In addition to what you said about Angel (the age difference, the stalking, the curse) I would add that Angel has decided to get his life together and help Buffy, but he doesn't really help her much during the first season. :-D He shows up every now and then to give her some advice, but mostly he stalks her. Plus, I don't like that he knows everything about her, but she knows nothing about him. Even if their love is pure and true, they can't be together because try being with someone who can't be happy and can't have sex with you or else he'll lose his soul. The best thing Angel could have done for Buffy is to leave, but he did it right before the prom, which I thought was horrible. Couldn't he have waited, like, two weeks? As for Spike - I think his dark obsession developed into some kind of love even before he gained a soul. At the end of season 5, he would rather sacrifice his life than reveal the truth about Dawn. When Buffy dies, he's totally devastated and protects Dawn even after Buffy's death. Buffy and Spike's relationship is pretty toxic, but it should be added that Buffy is pretty nasty to him too. The bathroom scene is extreme in my opinion and shouldn't have been there. I think it was out of character and after that he cannot be redeemed. Bathroom scene aside, I think Spike and Buffy might have a chance in the future if they had more time - Spike would learn what it means to have a soul, redeem himself from his past, and Buffy would have time to get to know him more, start to trust him and fall in love with him. She didn't really love him at the moment he died, even though he was in her heart and she certainly admired him a respected him. He was ok with it because he understood that he had not yet earned her love. Both relationships are sooo melodramatic (and compelling to watch). :-)

@ryanbtalkstv

Ай бұрын

Thank you! I think Buffy definitely deserved better than both situations. I'm a fan of Spike because he's a really well developed characters who's convincingly detestable and lovable. Though extreme, I do think what he did tracks with what we know of Spike. Outside of Buffy (and Dawn by proxy), Spike is known to be very cruel person that hunts and kills women. It's also the classic "bad boy who's nice to you" trope. Like many learn in real life, eventually you won't be an exception and the bad boy will treat you as he does all others. Angel was more of a straightforward star crossed lovers situation with Buffy (with a side of pedo stalker). I was never as interested in Angel as a character as I was with Spike. But, yes, what a time watching that all unfold in real tie!

Just discovered your channel and I love it! Forgive me for saying this, but as soon as Angel started speaking multiple sentences at a time, it was himbo city. Spike was at least intelligent. And he was willing to go through the worst torture to make amends. And apparently, Whedon forced Sarah and James to shoot that scene because he didn't how popular Spike became. All of that said, I was good with the final exchange between Buffy and Spike. I wish they hadn't brought him back in Angel (and pretend they didn't) because these fictional resurrections make characters' sacrifices irrelevant.

i think Riley just idolized her & then that made him jealous over time. Buffy was looking for a real human connection that understood her "job"...as he could have. He was more trying to keep up and then felt he didnt fit in her busy life schedule and kinda cried out about it. if she gotta do hard things like leave her sister and mom to go slay & save the world, Riley should've known more time with him was not on his side lol too needy fr. lol js.

16:32 i always read this whole spikes thing apparently wrong for years. I’ve been a watcher my whole life basically and to me i felt spike left with the intention to show Buffy “who he is” he was mad in this moment and felt like a monster and therefore would go become one. And then i believed the demon tricked him after the trials as a cruel punishment for its own amusement. Leaving spike with a soul. But i never thought that’s what started his journey the r word scene effected me personally and how i could see his motives i guess.

Something I always feel the need to bring up is that Angel was 26 when he turned, even if we disregard the vampire years Angel going after Buffy is still grooming. A 26yo man falls for a 15yo he's watching without her knowledge, orchestrates a "first" meeting when she's 16 and starts dating her, sleeps with her when she's 17. All of this Angel did WITH a soul. The thing with Angel gets even ickier when you realise that Dawn in s6 is the same age Buffy was when Angel fell for her. All the bad and creepy stuff Spike did, he did without a soul. I could never see s7 Spike pull any of the stuff he did before the soul. I'll also point out, the writers confirmed that Buffy was in love with Spike when she said it in s7.

@theprodigal

Ай бұрын

But also Spike fans are the worst hypocrites. Spike fans always yap on about how 'he had been in love with Buffy since he first saw her' But that was still (age 16) and yes those feelings were real as otherwise when he got his soul back he would have no feelings at all but he still harbours that love. Also the fact he is way older than Boreanaz and mirrors his own creepy relationship with an 18 year old when he was 40 is actual slimy and gross.

@Liilliithh

Ай бұрын

Not just that; Spike did a lot of creepy stuff, but he did good things without a sould too, the reason why they bonded in the first place was that Spike was the one who was there to listen to Buffy while all of her friends were mad at her for not being thankful for being pulled out of heaven, and even before that he almost died protecting Dawn's identity, he was Buffy's go-to whenever she needede someone to protect Dawn and Joyce, he got flowers for Joyce when she passed and used to watch soaps with her, when in the universe could you expect Angelus to do such a thing? Also, Buffy and Spike get in a relationship later on in the comics. And if all that is not enough, SPIKE GOT HIS OWN SOUL BACK, he became good because he wanted to, not because he was forced to, nobody "cursed" him with a soul, he wanted to be better. Spike met Buffy without a soul and went to get one, Angel met Buffy with a soul, lost it, killed her teacher, tortured her watcher and then tried to end the world... twice. Also, since he was 240 and Buffy was 17, you could argue that while Spike tried to Rxpe Buffy, Angel succeded.

@galehutchinson260

Ай бұрын

@@theprodigal I think I am either misunderstanding your comment or you have your facts wrong. Spike is 126 and Angel is 241. Angel is much older than Spike. Spike didn't fall for Buffy until she was 20. It was Angel who fell for her the first time he saw her at 16 without even have spoken to her but just by creepily watching her from a distance.

@galehutchinson260

Ай бұрын

@@Liilliithh This trope scares me. Dating the bad guy and he loves you so much he becomes good for you...that's a damaging message to give to young women. That isn't how bad boys work.

@theprodigal

Ай бұрын

@@galehutchinson260 Thats what I hate. They romanticised a literal stalker who stole her underwear and the show would always call it love.

BOTH SERIES AND COMICS SPOILERS Angel was the high school romance with the older guy who should've known better. Him being a vampire just complicated what was already wrong as Buffy was underage and Liam (Angel's human self) died at age twenty-six. Riley was the rebound who couldn't handle the fact that Buffy needed, asked for, and wanted casual at the time. Spike was soulless until the end of S6 no matter what good things fans and characters people say about him during that time. That's just a fact of his character that doesn't allow him to be anything more than he was by the time S6 rolls around. His S7-S12 (including the comics) soul storyline wouldn't have happened if the soulless version of him hadn't realized he had more Angelus in him than he wanted to admit (he even in the comics admits with a soul that his soulless self never actually loved Buffy like his soulless self always tried insisting). In S7 he slowly starts the relationship with Buffy he never could while soulless; a long-term boyfriend that couldn't ever be anything more (even with a soul) because at that point he is the equivalent of Angel, with the exception of Buffy being legal, unlike how she was with Angel. No relationship in the series was healthy from beginning until end, with the exception of Giles and Olivia, who agreed to an friends with benifits relationship (while neither of them were dating anyone). They even reaquaint themselves a couple times in the comics. They live a distance away, though so it can't always work and she struggled once realizing in _Hush,_ Giles had been telling her the truth about demons, vampires, and monsters before the series. What I find interesting about Bangel is that they try to hold onto what they thought was better and less toxic than it actually was after they break up and that creates more problems for them in other relationships and in ome non-relationship situations. Riley had the same problem in his and Buffy's relationship after The Initiative fell, and that's why he became obsessive with his need for affirmation. Where as Spike and Buffy never had anywhere to go but up in their relationship. From enemies to reluctant allies, to the annoying next door neighbor, to the bad boyfriend/lovers to loving one another to the comics where it was them being in love and dating to a healthy breakup to friends. People think S6 was a step backwards when really those problems were there on Spike's side from his enterence on the show, and on Buffy's side since her resurrection. So in some ways the step backwards is also their relationship progressing forward because Spike doesn't just leave town like Angel and Riley. He comes back with a soul, doesn't tell anyone he has said soul, and is ready to accept what those in the know about the bahroom scene would be willing to do to him. This leads to the positivity of S7 and Spuffy being together officially in the comics before having a mutual breakup because of Bangel teaching them to not try for forever in terms of vampire romance.

Always gonna be team Angel. Is it healthy? No. Is it grooming? Also no. Is he too old for her? Definitely yes, both as a human and a vampire. Is it toxic? Yes. But it is an epic fictional star crossed lovers story that still makes me a sobbing mess on every rewatch. It doesn’t have to be perfect, bc it's fictional and it being a mess makes for great story. I still love Spike, and neither are good for her, but yeah. #TeamBangel

@ryanbtalkstv

27 күн бұрын

One thing I appreciate is being able to critically analyze your fictional fav and stand on stanning them. Sometimes our faves do wild things, as is the case in real life. I'll drag my fav but still stand by beside them lmao I agree that while inappropriate, Angel didn't groom Buffy. It was a very mutual situation from the start with no coercion/false establishment of trust which is the case in grooming.

@SuperEkkorn

27 күн бұрын

@ryanbtalkstv7601 exactly. If we can analyse why media makes us feel some sort of way, we can also see where it falls short, nuance is everything. And even if, too me, Seeing Red makes it impossible for me to see Spike with Buffy as anything other than abhorrent, I recognise why others might feel differently. I mostly just ship her with happiness and fulfillment.

@Angelalex242

22 күн бұрын

@@ryanbtalkstv Angel is actually honest with her fairly quickly. The first kiss happens before she knows what he is, but the second kiss and every kiss thereafter happen with clear eyes. Angel didn't know about the true happiness thing when he pursued this...if he had, season 2 would look like Season 3. It's irritating he never found a curse fix.

But they didn't really know he would lose his soul this way, did they?

That cookie dough analogy is kind of asinine. You are never done baking in your life so by that logic I guess the message is, to be a strong - independent woman means being solo (nothing wrong with going solo). However, I agree that society especially 20 yrs ago, dwelled on purity too dang much, which is a ridiculous notion designed to control women’s bodies at least IMO.