This is extremely surprising to me. I did not vibe with AA at all. Fortunately, I had an extremely good support structure that has kept me sober so far. I might be one of the lucky ones in that regard.

@Jay-ho9io

2 жыл бұрын

However it's working for you, good thing that it is. 👍🏽 Good luck.

@monicaperez2843

2 жыл бұрын

Matt, I came from an alcoholic family (both parents, three brothers and a half brother). As the youngest, I saw what it did to them. Went to "Open AA," as I could not call myself an alcoholic at that time. Might have called myself a "high bottom" alcoholic. Gained compassion for my parents and brothers. Haven't drank since college (I am 63 years old). If I took a drink today, I am sure I would be an "instant alcoholic." Think alcoholism is an organic (genetic) disorder that has a spiritual component.

@miekekuppen9275

2 жыл бұрын

Apparently 63% of people doesn´t vibe with AA, so you´re not alone.

@RBuckminsterFuller

2 жыл бұрын

@@miekekuppen9275 The adage "different strokes for different folks" comes to mind. Hopefully many of those who don't get helped by AA can find other ways to stay sober.

@miekekuppen9275

2 жыл бұрын

@@RBuckminsterFuller Exactly.

Alcoholic and heroin addict here. Completely sober since July 4th 2020 and glad to be here with you guys!

The issue is, I believe the effectiveness of AA is due to the community aspect of it forging bonds and gaining understanding from people who actually understand them rather than simply claiming to. Essentially that community and support is the key counter to addiction rather than self-driven push.

@charitycase5650

2 жыл бұрын

I have been to many AA meetings so I know what you mean. I am currently in kzread.info/dash/bejne/po6rysOahrnVcaQ.html and it has dawned on me that the same method can be applied to other addictions

@TommyD1213

Жыл бұрын

remember getting a list of phone numbers to call people and using it because I was sleeping in my car in the winter and it was freezing and I had to jump start my car every time I wanted to start it. None of them did anything for me. That was disappointing. I’m sure not every group is life that, but I believe that whole thing of putting your name and number down and passing it around is nothing more than peer pressure.

@Snow-wz6eu

Жыл бұрын

IF and only IF you are able to find healthy moderate people. Which is very hard to find in AA. Blind leading the blind. If you use it as fellowship you are maybe fine. Find a therapist, leave toxic relationships, find your people, beware of brainwashing religious 1930's dogma. That BB is insane. Bill W was insane.

@DAClub-uf3br

9 ай бұрын

I found the climate toxic no matter what meeting i went to. I literally wanted to commit subside because how AA made me feel about myself. Fortunately i instead just stop attending.

Upwards of 37% efficacy may mean AA's better than other programs, but I still wouldn't call the "successful"...

@Jay-ho9io

2 жыл бұрын

More successful than many other interventions. CPR Is notoriously ineffective, and yet the number of people whose lives it has saved is enormous. Dismissing relative success because it is below 50% effectiveness ignores the amount of people involved and it's relative effectiveness compared to other interventions.

@therabbithat

2 жыл бұрын

Every other source I've ever seen has said it's the least effective. Also how do you measure success? AA call one glass of wine a week a failure, and other programs don't, so if they are allowed to define failure of course they look more successful

@chocolatethunder192

2 жыл бұрын

@@therabbithat if alcoholics could drink just 1 glass of wine a week, they wouldn't be alcoholics. :-)

@pokepaar3696

2 жыл бұрын

@@therabbithat If you apply the stringent "1 glass a day is failure" requirement, AA has a surprisingly high success rate in spite of so easily calling something a failure. I don't know what metric they used in the study though

@joenalaska

2 жыл бұрын

AA has a history of reporting that is biased at best, outright dishonest in the view of some, so I’d have to do some looking to trust that number. That being said, in addiction treatment getting even that high long term is phenomenally successful. Addiction is a many headed dragon and beating it is extremely difficult, no matter how much the addict wants it. If they don’t want it, it’s practically impossible.

you're telling me that with the most successful treatment right now at best, at B E S T, 37% of alcoholics seeking to stop drinking remain abstinent?? holy fuck addictions are terrifying. we NEED to find better methods ASAP. I hope we can bring that number up in the future, people deserve to be free when they want!

@neonsilver1936

2 жыл бұрын

Oh yeah, pretty much every academic theory for addiction included Relapse as a step in a cyclical model. According to those theories, it's not a question of IF you will relapse, it's WHEN, and those that report they stayed sober just haven't relapsed YET. Kinda depressing, tbh.

@charitycase5650

2 жыл бұрын

Same problem with me. ASAP is here now! Try kzread.info/dash/bejne/po6rysOahrnVcaQ.html and see if that system can apply

@karenishness1

2 жыл бұрын

MOST ALCOHOL ADDICTIONS SEEMS TO BE LINKED TO PARASITES.

@MsHojat

Жыл бұрын

I think that's only treatment that doesn't use medication (which is misleading). Medication can be extremely effective at treating AUD. When it comes to relapse and success rates, one also needs to be careful how one defines it. AA might define it as total abstinence, but even for an alcohol-sensitive person having one day where they do drink isn't a big problem if they don't continue for a prolonged time afterwards. And while some might say that sort of scenario is impossible for an alcohol-sensitive-person/alcoholic, those people have probably never heard of AUD medications, because that's exactly the kind of results such medications get.

@karenishness1

Жыл бұрын

@@MsHojat But you are only exchanging one addiction for another. For what?

I note the measurement used was abstinence rather than an overall reduction in alcohol consumption

@sandrastreifel6452

2 жыл бұрын

Abstinence is the goal of 12-step programs. If your goal is controlled use, you need a different treatment plan.

@myothersoul1953

2 жыл бұрын

@@sandrastreifel6452 Abstinence shouldn't be to goal, health including mental health, should be the goal. People can and do live very healthy lives that include moderate amounts of alcohol. That includes people who drank excessively in the past and had withdrawal symptoms when they quit.

@sandrastreifel6452

2 жыл бұрын

@@myothersoul1953 My health (and life) demands abstinence. Controlled substance use is possible for some people, but is not the only way to mental health, any more than abstinence is.

@SeanBZA

2 жыл бұрын

@@sandrastreifel6452 My 92 year old neighbour would disagree with you, having drunk a small glass of red wine every day, since she was 6, as part of being Italian. To her that small drink every day is part of lunch, and otherwise, aside from a small glass at celebrations outside of lunch, she does not drink at all.

@sandrastreifel6452

2 жыл бұрын

@@SeanBZA That’s great, but would kill me. Controlled use of any substance is not essential to mental health, nor is alcohol essential to life.

I'm a poly-addict/alcoholic. Addiction is a nightmare, especially when you're on more of the severe end of the spectrum. In fact, the 37% figure seemed optimistic to me, especially in my encounters with other addicts and alcoholics throughout my time in rehab and AA. Sobriety is possible, but the reality is that addiction is multi-layered; it's not uni-dimensional, which makes treatment difficult. There are biological factors, environmental, psychological, and cultural factors. When you break a leg, you just have to fix the broken bone. Additionally, most treatment programs do not last nearly long enough to undue years of destructive behavior. It's not that most rehabs suck; it's that they're not long enough and insurance often boots people out 14 days into their programs. A good, effective, holistic recovery program that focuses on addiction and mental illness, which two-thirds of addicts also have, lasts 3-6 months, and can cost $20,000 a month. They're excellent, but not within the reach of 99% of addicts. That being said, you do not need rehab to get sober, necessarily. And you do not necessarily need AA as well. That being said, AA has helped the plurality of addicts get sober successfully. From my experience, AA captures the subjective experience of being an addict very well, and the raw emotion present at meetings can cut through the precarious mental landscape within an addict's mind, fostering a sense of peace and motivation. There are challenges when you first get sober that make relapse difficult to avoid. One, your life is a mess, and you have to navigate life with a flood of emotions that you're not used to feeling. Addiction destroys your stress regulation capacity. Depending on the drug you're coming off of, you will have to learn how to adjust to either a reduced or heightened sense of speed in your conscious state of being. Also, your relationships are likely fragmented, or cut off completely, leading to isolation. Additionally, you've forgotten how to enjoy your hobbies and interests sober. This is especially difficult. Finally, you've lost your sense of purpose in life. All of these things lead many back to using, besides the physical withdrawal. I highly recommend Suboxone for opioid addiction. Im a recovering opioid addict, and suboxone helped me get off prescription pain pills entirely. Many are opposed to it, especially in AA. However, it is an incredibly useful partial agonist of the opioid receptor, killing cravings for opioids for me altogether while eliminating withdrawal. For those with high opioid tolerances, it is really not possible to achieve a high on it, and increasing the dose has diminishing return. Ultimately, addiction is a disease that tells you that you don't have a disease. It repeats and repeats. Until you want to change ultimately with a new perspective, sobriety is difficult to achieve for many.

Of course abstinence would be greater ... because other methodologies don't require abstinence, only avoidance of abuse.

@miekekuppen9275

2 жыл бұрын

And for some people that works as well as abstinence. But not for all. I remember a guy who went to an AA program where they all shared one glass of wine every week like communion wine at church. It sounded like a cult to me!

@Jay-ho9io

2 жыл бұрын

@@miekekuppen9275 Do you? So where is this room located at?

@SeanBZA

2 жыл бұрын

Abstinence works only on a small amount of people, the better thing is not to ban alcohol, but rather actually see what causes people to drink to excess and control that stimulus, rather than try to go against something that has literally been around since before humanity had any form of record keeping, and which was socially controlled to small amounts, given regularly, to enable social pressure to control drinking and poor behaviour. Almost all old religions have allowed and condoned alcohol in small amounts, and as fermentation to make weak beer was typically the safest form of making water available before modern germ theory showed how, it was common for all people to drink small amounts in moderation. You will find it hard to stop a behaviour, that has had thousands of generations selecting for it to be a survival trait, in a single session of treatment, when the genetic determination is there for it, you can only control the expression to a small degree, but it will be there for a good long time. It would be easier to make a person, with brown eyes, have natural colour blue ones than change this behaviour.

@miekekuppen9275

2 жыл бұрын

@@Jay-ho9io Austria, EU.

@Jay-ho9io

2 жыл бұрын

@@miekekuppen9275 that's.... wild. I have never heard of that in a room before. Wow.

I would imagine the reason AA works is because it goes some way to treating the cause of alcohol misuse. In my experience alcohol is used to self medicate, people who end up dependant are generally suffering from trauma of some description. It's a symptom which classical medicine treats as a disease in itself so I'm not surprised it's not very good. AA creates a supportive environment and connections, things that are missing in a lot of users lives, things that can't be fixed with CBT. I'd like to see a health care run programme that involved psychoanalytical therapy alongside community building exercises; fix the cause, don't just treat the symptom!

@paxundpeace9970

2 жыл бұрын

Yes, it provide community allows to prevent loneliness or the demand or urge to drink (with other peers). People learn to talk about the addiction and learn from others.

@SuperDoNotWant

2 жыл бұрын

AA doesn't "work", it just makes alcoholics into white-knuckle dry drunks. It neither alleviates nor treats any of the causes of alcoholism.

@Jay-ho9io

2 жыл бұрын

@@SuperDoNotWant That's a fascinating conclusion. Can you tell me the particulars of your thesis?

@vincentwinqvist4023

2 жыл бұрын

@@SuperDoNotWant You... did just watch a video about research showing that AA is actually the most effective treatment we have, right? Not for everyone, not perfect - but the one most likely to help alcoholics remain abstinent. If you think otherwise, I recommend you find better research supporting your standpoint. If you can't I'd suggest the hard thing and admit that you might need to change your standpoint.

@soothmoth

2 жыл бұрын

My alcoholic ex didn't have any past trauma, just a touch of depression and a genetic disposition to alcoholism. Please stop assuming that mental disorders can't happen to "normal" people.

Did the research account for people being sentenced to AA meetings as a condition of bail or sentencing for OVI/DUI or public intoxication? Or to other programs?

@miekekuppen9275

2 жыл бұрын

No it didn´t, it sent people randomly. It would be interesting to know what the numbers look like for people who don´t want to go. Probably terrible, but the same would likely be true for other programs.

@Psychol-Snooper

2 жыл бұрын

They weren't looking at data, they were creating scientific data!

@skepticalroot

2 жыл бұрын

@@miekekuppen9275 I thought this was based on a large meta-analysis and not a structured study. Did I get that wrong?

@Jay-ho9io

2 жыл бұрын

@@skepticalroot you did not. "New Cochrane Review finds Alcoholics Anonymous and 12-Step Facilitation programs help people to recover from alcohol problems | Cochrane" www.cochrane.org/news/new-cochrane-review-finds-alcoholics-anonymous-and-12-step-facilitation-programs-help-people

@miekekuppen9275

2 жыл бұрын

@@skepticalroot That´s how I understand it as well but in the studies they mentioned participants were randomized to different treatments. Involving people who don´t want to be in treatment at all wouldn´t pass the ethics committee in my country.

AA has worked for me for 33+ years. I never would have dreamed I'd have the life i have now....I just coudn't have come up with the what AA program on my own. I tried tons of times ot stop but always got drunk again until I was presented to this program. It saveded me. Having said that, I totally support anyone doing whatever or going wherever they need to go to treat thier addiction. My dad was a raging violent alcoholic...he went to AA for a while but didn't like it....he went to group therapy, church and some other groups and sobered up...most of all he got honest and made amends. He's been sober 30 yrs. My brother and sister sobered up in AA. They lead highly productive lives serving the community and being great parents. AA worked for them. I know people who tried but the 12steps just didn't stick. I think it would be almost impossible to measure with accuracy the efficacy of AA. How do you define "success?". Sober for 1 year? 5 years? a lifetime? So many come into AA, sober up and then move on and live sober lives. Many come in sober up, then get drunk again, and bounce back and forth...they leave and you never hear from them again. A better study would be to compare groups of people with longterm sobriety to people that bounce in and out. Why do some stay sober and others don't?

I would be ok with AA if it didn't have the religious element to it. If there was a support system similar but without the religious connotations, I'd be more influenced to try it

@paxundpeace9970

2 жыл бұрын

I do think plenty of groups don't share those elements but i do think that they are often the case.

@Jay-ho9io

2 жыл бұрын

Alcoholics anonymous does not require you to be religious nor does the steps require a religious interpretation. Many people of course do interpret it that way, but I personally know in addition to myself and my parent, other people who are atheist or agnostic that have interpreted the steps through a more philosophical view.

@RedisFun2

2 жыл бұрын

Something greater then ourselves.

@sandrastreifel6452

2 жыл бұрын

It’s a spiritual program, though not religious. Other treatments should be available. Healthcare, it’s a human right, eh? 🇨🇦

@seanwebb605

2 жыл бұрын

@@Jay-ho9io It is entirely a "Give yourself up to Jesus" situation.

And further "abstinence" should not be the goal. Normalised behaviour should be the goal as it is with any other mental health disorder. Having to entirely avoid alcohol is certainly not "remission" it's just being a dry drunk. If you can have a drink or two and stop there, then you're in remission. Then you're well. Why are we teaching people struggling with alcohol abuse that they are incurable? Irretrievably broken? What kind of crazy "treatment" is that? Again it just seems to me that we want to avoid having to see the gross, sloppy drunks, but otherwise they're free to inflict their normal emotional harm on themselves and others.

@sandrastreifel6452

2 жыл бұрын

The goal of 12-step programs is sobriety, and life. If your goal is controlled use, you need a different program.

@wmdkitty

2 жыл бұрын

@@sandrastreifel6452 Go away, cultist.

@sandrastreifel6452

2 жыл бұрын

@@wmdkitty I only stated the goal of 12-step programs is abstinence, controlled use is not. Facts don’t justify insults.

@GeoLover

2 жыл бұрын

I would like to arrive at that level... be able to drink from time to time one or to glasses not more, but my psy wants me first to be abstinent 2 years.

@therabbithat

2 жыл бұрын

I don't drink because alcohol causes stabbing sharp pains in my colon, I don't miss it. Abstinence is easy for some people, but if it's an obstacle to recovery, as it is for some, then obviously scrap it. The main problem is that AA pathologizes normal lapses which are part of recovery and almost universal. They are part of the journey on your way to getting better, not the end of the world. Also, for most, identifying as an addict actually makes it harder to quit. Yeah you need to admit you have a problem, but "I am an alcoholic" is not helpful. " I am a fighter, who needs better coping skills, and who can beat this" is an example of something more helpful

What about other non-AA group therapy type treatments? I feel like the only part of AA that is of any material benefit to struggling alcoholics is the gathering of individuals to make connections and build a support system for each other. Anything more simply cannot add any value to it, unless they were on multiple treatments at once. A combination of CBT, group therapy and perhaps some medicinal approach. We have a strong propensity for using the cheapest solution for complex problems in our society. But often, the cheapest solution isn't best.

@smooth_space

2 жыл бұрын

This is my question as well

@freefrogification

2 жыл бұрын

This reminds me of the "common factors" principle amongst therapeutic modalities (numerous different ones can still be effective because they share factors such as empathy, rapport, etc), so it would make sense why a loose organisation of laypeople (no offence intended) can still have a positive impact. A complication of AA in research I was surprised wasn't mentioned is about the variability in chapters/sessions/members - one group may very purely implement AA practices while another may not. Treatment is neither manualised nor conducted traditionally by trained professionals, so has been viewed as an adjunct to additional treatment. Source for this last point: Addiction Treatment - Clinical Skills for Healthcare Providers (Coursera).

I quit drinking about seven years ago. I didn't go to AA. Instead I got hired on full-time and got health insurance. I was able to address my underlying mental health issues which gave me enough relief to finally quit. Those first couple of months of sobriety were so hard and I had nobody. I didn't tell anyone I quit until I was fairly sure I wasn't going to screw it up. It is easily the hardest thing I've ever done but also the greatest decision I've ever made. I'm glad AA helps a lot of people, but I don't like how some in the program think there is no other way to stop drinking. The program can never fail you, you can only fail it and I'm sorry, that's some cult-like shit. I was completely sober for two years, but since then I've drank very very little. Literally one or two times in a year and I never have more than three drinks. I can't even remember the last time I was actually more than buzzed. I'm sober for all intents and purposes, but a lot of AA members would of course say I'm not sober or I was never an alcoholic which is just absurd on it's face. It's unfalsifiable BS.

Now can we talk about the validity of the "Give yourself over to Jesus" aspect of AA?

@Pfoffie

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah I also think we should. AA because of that always felt like exchanging one abusive mind numbing thing with another.

@Jay-ho9io

2 жыл бұрын

There is no such aspect. You've created that. "AA Beyond Belief - Agnostics, Atheists and Freethinkers in AA" aabeyondbelief.org

@Pfoffie

2 жыл бұрын

@@Jay-ho9io en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve-step_program#Twelve_Steps well no it’s a thing. But there is atheistic approach to it it seems then. Thanks for the link

@EvePoirier

2 жыл бұрын

It's got nothing to do with Jesus. I'm an atheist, AA and similar groups have updated their formulation to a "higher power" which can be anything you want, including the group itself. AA was Indeed rooted in religion but it moved away from this with time.

@seanwebb605

2 жыл бұрын

@@EvePoirier Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

I'm surprised that you would claim its hard to surmount the self-selection bias for AA. Every year many people are given court mandates to attend AA meetings. It should be pretty easy to compare the results from compelled attendance to voluntary attendance.

@daredaemon8878

2 жыл бұрын

That's another bias, however. Because there's a spectrum of motivation. A lot of people attending programs to deal with addiction (whether it's alcohol, opiates, or whatever) are motivated, but not highly motivated. It's quite possible that people who choose AA over clinical solution may largely be in the highly motivated group. Also you'd need those who were compelled to attend to actually agree to participate in the study, and I suspect that among those who agree to do so, motivation is higher than the average person compelled to attend.

Despite its efficacy, I'm extremely weary of AA and its methods. AA constructs its program much like a cult would, and breaks down psychological barriers in ways that prods my moral compass to unsettling effects. It's not just a measure of curing an addiction, but settling into a specific culture that treats abstinence as a prerequisite. When people who attend are already vulnerable, this ulterior motive puts a bad taste in my mouth, despite the results.

@Jay-ho9io

2 жыл бұрын

Then no one is requiring you to join. But if a medical professional is speaking to its effectiveness as a potential for a patient that is seeking some kind of intervention, they should be aware of its relative success compared to other interventions. And if absence is the goal of someone, and this is one of the more successful interventions, then they should be free to pursue it.

@sandrastreifel6452

2 жыл бұрын

Abstinence is the goal of 12-step programs. If controlled use is your goal, another treatment plan may be for you. AA is not a cult, particularly it has no authoritarian leader, no leader of any kind in fact, and you haven’t really been specific about what “ulterior motive” 12-step groups might have?

@DrOmni

2 жыл бұрын

@@Jay-ho9io I'm not preventing anyone from anything. I'm saying that I find AA troublesome from a moral standpoint, and why

@wmdkitty

2 жыл бұрын

Because it IS a cult. I've lost people to it.

@sandrastreifel6452

2 жыл бұрын

@@wmdkitty I’m sorry you experienced that, but cults have particular characteristics which aren’t present in AA, especially authoritarian leadership.

Now we need a random controlled study to determine whether all the god-talk in AA is of any value whatsoever. Along the same lines, we need a similar study to determine if "thoughts and prayers" offer any positive benefit to accident and disease victims and their relatives. If they do, we should pay people to think and pray and if not, we should cut out the god-nonsense.

@seanwebb605

2 жыл бұрын

Thoughts and prayers send mass shooting victims right to heaven.

@Jay-ho9io

2 жыл бұрын

We can find that those that are interested in AA are at least intrude m interested in a life with access to sobriety. And in that event, it (AA) is a viable RELATIVELY effective intervention.

@radishraccoon3657

2 жыл бұрын

That seems a bit harsh (the second part). If I suffer a loss or have an accident and my friends send me a card to say they're thinking of me, I really appreciate it regardless of whether they're sending thoughts, hugs, prayers, wishes . It's comforting to know that others are thinking of you, which is absolutely helpful for each other's wellbeing. In most cases there isn't anything "more material" that others could do even if they wanted to - and neither does sending 'well wishes' preclude offering material assistance if helpful.

@therabbithat

2 жыл бұрын

I met someone who's higher power was himself.. AA Is fine for atheists, of all the things wrong with it I don't know why people fixate on this. I guess because God is such a bully in the USA, unlike a lot of countries

@Jay-ho9io

2 жыл бұрын

@@therabbithat I'm sure that has quite a bit to do with it. I have also found that the a insignificant number of people are quite happy to second guess someone else's sobriety when it's not done the way they feel they would do it.

This might be a reason to procedure some more episodes on this topic. Are similar programs for other drugs working too?

I was raised in AA because my mom attended. I participated in a 12 step program later in life. These places can be full of liars. It's very common people lie about clean time among other things. Many replace one addition with another like sexually harassing and manipulating newcomer women/men (sex addiction). I have a litany of horror studies. I finally got clean and stayed clean on my own by moving far away from my triggers. Unfortunately my mom and father died from their addictions.

I'm really uncomfortable with this video uncritically promoting the raw numbers of AA without addressing the real negative externalities it has that the other commenters here have pointed out. You might see why if you read the replies to the comment sections and notice the common posters and how they're acting.

@KGB.83

Жыл бұрын

Then don't.

@thetruthchannel4634

Жыл бұрын

I found the video hard to follow. Can I ask what your experience was with AA? Or were you even a member. I’m 13 years sober now. Not one meeting this time but I’m thinking of started meetings. Get this : I’m watching a guy throw back a whiskey on TV ? I could literally taste it. I could taste it after 13 years

@ola3100

Жыл бұрын

Alcoholics anonymous was created by Alistair Crowley the anti christ. The first three steps are a trap. The aa symbol itself originates from a cult called thematic cult. The triangle in a circle is to conjure demons. So why would the anti christ be helping us ..... Cause this god parasite isn't our creator aka the law of Christianity discovery allows this god rat to kill innocent people to spread this disease the god and it's religion. Bill Wilson who wrote the big book is known for witchcraft using Ouija boards with his wife. Religion is a lie the idea of tything comes from wanting you humans to believe going to work is the will of the creator but instead you are rats feeding energy to this parasite. We are no longer created for love connection or truth but to feed energy to this parasite rat. Joe you hide from me like your a dog. For 4 years I've made myself clear and to this day 4 years later I still wait for a form of protection from this rat and it's whore. Lads my family are no longer my family why??????? Cause of nothing more than I've spoken of my creator and the god rat isn't our creator so it's fed these pigs a gook each so this human will be isolated lol but joe you could never face me. All I want out of life and I've said this everyday for 4 years is the god rat that I've invited into my life through a program created by the anti christ removed. That's all I want and I've waited 4 years and still to this day nothing can remove this god scum nothing but joe lol you hide from me like your a dog. I give my word once this god scum and it's whore are removed I click my fingers and show the world who my creator is. Lol lads nothing can remove this god rat nothing lol but it's not my creator and I choose my creator so nothing gives. I'm hijacked and I can prove it in a court of law this path is no longer for my son but their whore who is making it clear fuck my creator it'll not live like a Mormon lol but I'm forced lol forced to accept this whore by a rat that I can't remove but has hijacked me and I can prove it all cause I chose to turn from this god rat to seek my true creator. I'm not powerless and this rat will make sure I can't provide a path for others. Lads still to this day I wait for a form of communication lol but my family are no longer my family

I sometimes wonder if it is the actual content of the AA program that is more successful than other treatment or if it is that it is easily accessible, you can attended multiple times a day if needed and there is a community of support around you. As far as I've seen there isn't another program with that same reach. So I think it is hard to tell whether it is the actual 12 steps that help or the other aspects because going to CBT once a week or meeting with a therapist isn't really equivalent. Also I think we should continue to research more into treatment because regardless of the program the success rate is unfortunately low.

@Snow-wz6eu

Жыл бұрын

Yes. It gives people something to do. A lot of us were isolated. But then you realize, wait? THIS is treatment? Nope. It's religion. Faith based "healing". This is 2022, not the 1930's! Bill W had a "spiritual awakening" while on drugs (belladona) he was insane and a narcissist. He copied the Oxford group "steps" and wrote a crazy book with the help of priests to "play therapist". All of this info is online...It's insane if we really think that addiction is a "disease" that this would be a treatment.

Great review, Thanx

Much more research needs to be put into psychedelic treatments. The LSD trials from the 60s were extremely promising, with a significant effect six months after a single dose. Semi-regular sessions could possibly be an untapped powerful treatment.

@sandrastreifel6452

2 жыл бұрын

Bill W himself thought the same, after his experiences with LSD. Psychedelics have immense therapeutic promise, and need research done on their effectiveness for multiple diagnoses, not just substance use disorder.

@franciscosantana1291

2 жыл бұрын

John Hopkins was recently given a 17 million dollar grant to continue the study of mushroom and its therapeutic effect on addiction, depression, anxiety. They’re also opening a new psychological/psychedelic research facility for continued studies :D. The future is bright 🙏🏽

@Arikayx13

2 жыл бұрын

There is indeed research that’s ongoing and the preliminary results are insanely promising, sadly expect the treatment costs to also be insane, especially given results are seen in only a few sessions.

@aaronsmith5864

2 жыл бұрын

Agreed more research is always good and it might help but aa provides something no drug or therapy session can ever provide a community to belong to. Humans are tribal creatures and most people lose their tribe somewhere on the road to addiction. Finding a new tribe that accepts and supports you is so much more powerful than lsd will ever be. But who know it might help so why not look and see.

@Snow-wz6eu

Жыл бұрын

@@sandrastreifel6452 Yes. I believe he would be mortified that people still follow the book he wrote when he was 3-4 years sober. And when nothing else was available. "AA come of age" book where Bill W himself writes about the dogma that is going on in AA. He created a monster.

I'm interested in research that compares AA to other kinds of support groups, like SMART Recovery. There's a religious overtone to AA that lots of people don't vibe with.

@sandrastreifel6452

2 жыл бұрын

AA is a spiritual program, not a religious one, but certainly other forms of treatment must be made available. Healthcare is a human right, no matter the diagnosis.

@Jay-ho9io

2 жыл бұрын

@@sandrastreifel6452it is not. "AA Beyond Belief - Agnostics, Atheists and Freethinkers in AA" aabeyondbelief.org

@greatest7391

Жыл бұрын

@@sandrastreifel6452 It is religious.

@sandrastreifel6452

Жыл бұрын

@@greatest7391 Depending on your definition of “religious”. It’s an openly spiritual program, but has no religious requirements to belong. It’s open to members of any religion, and none.

@greatest7391

Жыл бұрын

@@sandrastreifel6452 The Lords Prayer? The Serenity Prayer? The Steps from the Oxford Group? The Supreme Court ruling AA as a religion? Prayer to a God?

Is it specific to AA itself or just to the social aspect? Did it compare AA to other peer-to-peer groups? ARE there other groups lol, I'm not really up on that to be honest.

To judge the effectiveness in treating alchoolism by rates and lenght of abstinence is insane. It's based on the assumption that the only healty and not pathological relation with alchool is total abstinece, wich is not true. And it's rather obvius that A.A. scores best at inducing abstinence. Its kinda their ideology. That's not the outcome we should look for though. We should look for psicological, and physical, wellbeing.

@therabbithat

2 жыл бұрын

Right, saying every program that results in people still having one glass of wine once a year is a failure is literally the only metric that allows AA to look relatively effective. BUT what matters is finding something that works for the person looking for it, just don't give up on giving up, that's what matters ( or don't give up on cutting down! )

Personally, I have found that hanging out with people who don’t use works far better than hanging around people who do nothing but talk about using.

As someone who has been sober for 20 years, this doesn't surprise me. In treatment, they only offered AA and NA. As a drug addict who drank. I found AA to be the place for me for my first 14 years. Today, I wish I had more choices. The peer approach AA has is necessary in my opinion. But it got in the way when I had recovered enough to seek support for other issues. Which allowed a life, I would never put on anyone.

@Snow-wz6eu

Жыл бұрын

14 years before you could start healing the underlying issues...It's very sad, people lose a LOT of time around 12 step groups.

@paulfrye2962

Жыл бұрын

@@Snow-wz6eu without sobriety, nothing is possible.

What about the side effects of A.A? Such as superstitious beliefs or reduction of critical thinking?

@matbroomfield

2 жыл бұрын

Exactly - you replace one toxic addiction with another.

@Jay-ho9io

2 жыл бұрын

There are none. Correlation / causation. If you show up to alcoholics anonymous with those pre-existing conditions then you're going to maintain them. Even if it helps with your sobriety it does not magically make you anything else other than (potentially) sober. Equally, if it does help you achieve sobriety it does not suddenly graft on a religious belief or some kind of magical thinking otherwise. It is as much of a philosophical interrogation of the addictive personality as it is any kind of faith-based work. I have found in the decades that I have been involved with the program or involved with others within it that opinions like this are almost uniformly held by people outside of the program or who have had no experience with it personally. That's not exactly surprising.

@wmdkitty

2 жыл бұрын

@@Jay-ho9io Another cultist. Not surprising.

@myothersoul1953

2 жыл бұрын

@@Jay-ho9io " those pre-existing conditions then you're going to maintain them" But they shouldn't be maintained. Joining A.A. or not may not always make a difference, but when it does it it will likely bias toward the less good outcome. A.A. might work but it might work just as well or maybe better without the toxic ingredients.

@Jay-ho9io

2 жыл бұрын

@@myothersoul1953 however the point of entering into AA isn't about improving some ones critical thinking or adherence to humanism. People join it to become/remain sober as a first priority and those who are humanist, pursue they're humanism through their sobriety. (Seeking neurostsbiity over false neurotypical norming.)

The thing to remember about AA is that it was designed to be strictly voluntary. That hasn't changed despite the fact that many people entering the program do so under duress, by court order, with the intention of leaving as soon as the sentence is up. Such people's chances are much poorer than those of volunteers. A study that compared success rates of volunteers v. those under sentence would produce wildly different results.

@mkartmkart6335

Жыл бұрын

Yea... that'd be a great comparison for a study actually... has anyone done it ?

@johnortmann3098

Жыл бұрын

@@mkartmkart6335 Not to my knowledge.

@sandypnath1q

Жыл бұрын

"willingness is the key"

@sandrastreifel6452

Жыл бұрын

As a “friend of Bill W”, I hate that anyone is forced to attend meetings. Although AA is a spiritual, not a religious program, these sentences seem to violate peoples’ religious freedom, which includes freedom FROM religion or spirituality if you prefer.

@johnortmann3098

Жыл бұрын

@@sandrastreifel6452 You've got a point there.

The most important part for AA to be successful is the ability to connect with the participants. If you don't find that at one AA meeting, try another. Just like individual therapy requires a good relationship between the therapist and client.

@Snow-wz6eu

Жыл бұрын

If you go to AA a lot of people would disagree with you. I do agree.

I was drunk for 12 years. I have now been comfortably sober for 9 years. I never went to AA, or counselling, or anything. Ever. All I had to do was 1.6g of ibogaine HCL.

It was the 'fellowship' of AA that enabled me to stay sober. Alcohol was a love affair and it took months/years and the example of other sober members to change my perception to one that could see a life without alcohol. In my case, alcohol was also a symptom of a chaotic personality. I left AA after 12 years as I couldn't lie to myself that I believed any deity was meddling in my life and keeping me sober. And no, I have not misunderstood the program. Had the program been secular, zen-like, I would have stuck around - but I am unfortunately intolerant (my problem) of listening to bs about god, especially from old timers. In my view, AA works, despite the 12 steps, not because of them. They can help at times, but are far far from optimal and not what is needed.

@sandrastreifel6452

Жыл бұрын

AA was never intended to be “the only way to get/stay sober”. Nor should it replace mental and physical healthcare. I hope you are well and sober.

@budte

Жыл бұрын

@@sandrastreifel6452 I had my last drink in 1982, thanks for asking. Without the change of perception made possible by association with the minds of other AA members who were happy to be sober I do not believe this would have happened. The basic premise of AA's 12 steps is that no real alcoholic can remain sober through their own or any human power and must find some form of God. Of course, years afterwards in Bill W's later writings he appears to have mellowed somewhat, but the program had already been written and was never changed. There are some contradictions here, but only if you read the extended literature.

As someone who has found sobriety , it seams like alot of people get sober with and without AA. Obviously AA is bias and thinks only AA gets you sober . My real world experience is that it's 50 /50 . 50% use AA and 50% don't . However the ones in AA are very vocal and say AA is the only way . Just my 2 cents .

Im curious how are the outcomes of non-religious ppl attending to AA, since the 12 steps are based on religion. Also, it seems to me that they work against autonomy, but I know Im dumb.

@Jay-ho9io

2 жыл бұрын

Sobriety of 26 years for my father and 21 years of a new interaction with alcohol for me. Both atheist. One raised atheist by the previously mentioned atheist. The steps are not required to be interpreted religiously. Of course they can and often are, but it is just as possible to interpret it through a philosophical lens, and the higher power the first step requires you to humble yourself before can be the universe, the concept of humanity or a doorknob.

@RedisFun2

2 жыл бұрын

Something greater then ourselves.

@sandrastreifel6452

2 жыл бұрын

12-step programs are spiritual, they don’t follow any religious tradition. Autonomy is great, but strong people know when to get help from other people, or from a higher power, as you might conceive of it.

@bekkayya

2 жыл бұрын

@@Jay-ho9io Jay you really do seem like an alright fellow, but the fact that you find it necessary to reply to literally every comment on here doesnt really lend credence to the idea that AA doesnt cause dogmatism

@Jay-ho9io

2 жыл бұрын

@@bekkayya I'm a fairly long time follower of the doctor, and I've contributed heavily here in the past when the subjects overlap with my research or my personal/professional experience. Given that there's a certain repetitive theme to some of the comments here in regards to the supposed necessity of religiosity for AA, I feel it's important to speak against that so that people don't read this and walk away without any kind of nuance or alternate point of view being given. There are a variety of interventions available to people who are dealing with alcoholism or problematic drinking. Very few of them have very much success at all, none have uniform success for most people. So it's important to me that everyone that does feel they're struggling with an issue related to alcoholism or problematic drinking gets as much useful information about it as possible and isn't being fed a unclarified point of view about a relatively successful intervention. Alcoholics anonymous is absolutely not for everyone, but it made a huge difference in my personal professional life, and in the lives of both my parent and a large group of others. I'm personally rather invested in making sure that exterior opinions about it aren't presented without rebut. EDIT; You're also likely to see me reply or post a great deal related to indigenous health related issues in North America, methamphetamine use and law enforcement interactions, and successful messaging in public health. Those three things aren't reputed to cause dogmatism are they? 😂

Please overview fibromialgia topic

AA is a completely unscientific and unproven approach that has almost certainly done more damage than good through a circular door system that blames the patient for its own failings.

@aaronsmith5864

2 жыл бұрын

Did you not watch the video. Because I'm pretty sure i just watched a video where a bunch of scientists studied aa and found it worked as well or better than other methods. Part of being scientific is updating your beliefs based on evidence. Give it a try sometime

@therabbithat

2 жыл бұрын

Right. PTSD? That's a choice. Glass of wine at Christmas dinner after ten years sober? Back to day one. No evidence.

@Arikayx13

2 жыл бұрын

@@aaronsmith5864 What ‘other methods’ did they look at? How many people were in the study? Did these studies include the fact AA is assigned by courts and needs to be completed to fulfill court obligations? How many of those washed out? What’s average relapse time? These and more are important questions that weren’t asked. This was an uncritical look at a program that tells people to evangelize the steps to get them addicted to spreading the word to hide the complete lack of scientific support for a program that’s built on fantasy.

@vincentwinqvist4023

2 жыл бұрын

@@Arikayx13 They did look at people who dropped out in some cases, yes. And relapse time was the main thing studied. This is a meta-review of several extensive and high-quality studies. They did ask the important questions with all the critical mind science demands. And with all of that, compared to other methods that are commonly used for treatment, such as CBT and counseling, AA is, on average, more effective with fewer relapses and longer periods of abstinence. This isn't true for everyone, not all the time, and you might have opinions on other aspects of the result, but the evidence is clear: AA is the single most effective approach for more patients than anything else we might recommend. The picture is nuanced, but you might want to update your beliefs to fit the scientific evidence. I'm not a huge fan of AA myself, but I can't deny the data.

@Arikayx13

2 жыл бұрын

​@@vincentwinqvist4023 I was indeed looking over the review, but have yet to find any sort of “quality of life” question, or even questions about other addictions. As noted by people here, it’s not completely uncommon for those in AA to be addicted to something else instead. Now if this addiction is overall less dangerous than alcohol I would consider this decent harm-reduction, but not on the same level as actually dealing with the reason for the addiction. The review seems entirely focused on alcohol consumption and nothing else, and for that I think it’s useful for looking at only in terms of reduction in alcohol consumption, but not whether that actually helps the individual. The ultimate goal of a healthcare treatment.

This is concerning given how intensely religion is integrated into the AA process, along with surrender of the self to an unaccountable entity. This means that nonreligious or people of varying faiths may not be able to benefit, and if that's the case, then they are completely without available methods of treatment at all. Still... I think that the root of the drug and alcohol dependence epidemic is coming from a system of failing healthcare structure, as well as financial strain becoming more and more unsustainable as the wealth disparities broaden more and more. Alcoholism and addiction to drugs are, fundamentally, a desperate escapism for people in physical and mental distress, and if the root suffering is treated, then the dependence is far easier to shake.

AA is not a medical institution. If you like going to meetings that is fine, but it isn't a substitute. People should see a therapist and psychiatrist, as you would with any medical issue.

Having to admit to a loved one would destroy my relationship. He thinks I've not been drinking. Admitting I've been secretly drinking would destroy our trust.

@RinoSchiavoCampo

3 ай бұрын

The program does not encourage you to light fire to your life. It's anonymous for a reason. I encourage you to not let third hand information about amends bring you fear that prevents your recovery. If you have not started, then it's way early to even contemplate admitting your drinking to your spouse. You might never do that. The only person that will ever make these decisions is yourself. Your recovery is yours alone, whether you choose to have it or not. Read up and see that there are huge differences between the 5th and the 9th step. I wish you the best.

AA's _own studies_ show that 12-Step is less effective than just going cold turkey.

@seanwebb605

2 жыл бұрын

I love turkey.

Would love to see you a address SMART Recovery in a future video.

Want to have an insightful read? I never attended AA. Not without reason, and not just because no provider told me I was supposed to while I was in PHP/IOP for bipolar depression. I was "part-time" in the chemical dependency program. Only learned about that apparent requirement from another patient on my last few days. However, for me, getting the basics on the Disease Model of Addiction was the most helpful element. I figured I could use that model; that reinforcing new pathways in my brain by means of pursuing different behaviors would be a solid start. Given that my brain, like all brains, is constantly processing new information and 'rewiring' itself to better adapt to that information, then my brain might allow the increasingly-unused addictive pathways to degrade over time. Why keep up with maintaining them over time if they aren't being actively employed? Perhaps those pathways might not disappear completely, but I hoped they'd lose influence over myself. It appears to have worked, at least for now. I don't feel the need for alcohol. I don't even want it (granted I sometimes miss the specific sensation of starting a crisp, refreshing drink, but that is about a sensation, not the alcohol content). I imagine my brain has adapted itself to live without it. Another way of putting it is that I'm focusing my limited energy to be on things I want to do. If I were to attend AA, then I'd be focusing my limited energy on something I'm not going to do anymore. It strikes me, at least for me, as wasteful and maybe even counter-productive. Would an amputee be as free to enjoy life if they focused on things they couldn't readily do anymore? They might be much more satisfied and happier in their life if they focused on things they could do instead. I also happen to think that some of the steps in 12-step programs could perpetuate a victimhood mindset. Telling myself that I am powerless against a substance and that I need a "higher power" wouldn't, as far as I know myself, be helpful. I'm holding myself accountable to my past behavior. I'd see a "higher power" as a cop-out. And I'd wager the same could be true for others too. For those that praise AA, if alcohol-use disorder is a disorder of the brain, then why is a "higher power" not also suggested for other disorders? I've not been encouraged to look to a "higher power" to manage my bipolar/anxiety disorders. Why is addiction specifically targeted as needing a "higher power"? As far as I know, I am ultimately the only one who is in charge of caring for my conditions. I may need help to carry it out, but that doesn't mean I am completely powerless. Would appealing to a "higher power" mean I am bypassing my responsibility? It sounds too vague to be reliably studied too? What constitutes a "higher power"? Commitment to family and friends? Values and laws? A God? Does it matter? If AA wasn't free, then what would be the cost of it compared to other means? For the comparison, how involved are the participants in CBT? Therapy doesn't go as far as it could if one doesn't, so to speak, do their homework. If you read this to the end, I hope this rationale, be it good or not, was thought-provoking. If you struggle with any substance(s), there is no more shame in reaching for help than for any other condition. In other words, if there is no inherent shame to reach out for depression, then there ought not be shame to reach out for other disorders. We all need help sometimes.

How can they tell how well it works since AA keeps no statistical information?

How about SMART recovery? It's free too and you can drop in online almost anywhere on the planet

The fact that AA is provides, free, drop-in treatment and peer support is great, but the way it relies on shame and Christianity (or faith in a very similar belief system) is a serious problem. I wonder if we could provide more support for other methods that also provide free, drop-in, peer-based treatment, or if we could get any research into the efficacy of AA for non-Christian patients. The dearth of options for non-Christian patients is outrageously discriminatory, and I refuse to believe that there is no treatment plan that could provide the benefits of AA without demanding patients adopt a specific rigid set of religious beliefs

Medication-assisted treatment is far more effective than AA. All those guys who have been in and out of prison for the past 11 years look down on me because I’m not sober because I take medication to help with my addiction. Meanwhile, I have a house, a wife, a steady job…basically all the fun, adult things I thought I would never have when I was in active addiction. If my meds mean I’m not sober, I don’t care. I didn’t end up in AA/NA because I was taking prescriptions responsibly, but because I wasn’t. Now that I can take them responsibly I don’t really care about the opinions of others.

I wouldn't consider myself an alcoholic, but I do have that strong link between alcohol and dopamine that many alcoholics seem to have. This has led to binge drinking - chasing the dopamine high. Perhaps the biggest impact in preventing this behaviour has been cognitive behavioural therapy (CBT) for the social anxiety disorder, which has caused me to drink excessively in stressful social gatherings. CBT required me to do stuff like not drink within an hour of arriving at a party and waiting 45 minutes between each drink. I actually went out and bought a G-Shock, which had a quick activating countdown timer and a non-intrusive vibrating alarm to make this easier. Worked for me, even at Oktoberfest, although I must be eternally vigilant.

@larryherring445

2 ай бұрын

I have news for you. If you need a timer to space out your drinks and are counting your drinks. You might be an alcoholic. Just saying.

Why are you comments turned off for your COVID video 🤨

The alcoholics anonymous meeting was cancelled without any public notification. This level of disrespect will not be forgiven.

been sober for 34 days boys lets go

Interesting, though I wonder how much the results of this analysis are culture-dependent? E.g. would AA be more successful than alternatives in more secular societies than the US?

Is there any research about atheists and AA? Because I feel like I would resist attending even if I thought I needed to, because the whole concept is objectionable...

@michaelneilson977

2 жыл бұрын

I thought the same thing. It is very accepting of all beliefs. They actually have a chapter about it in the Big Book.

Project MATCH had some surprising 'findings' in their multi-million several year study of how people reacted when subjected to the various other paths to sobriety.

What are the "other treatments" being compared with though? I get the impression that it might only be medication-free treatments, which might be a _fair_ comparison, but still a highly _misleading_ one. As far as I understand, for recovering from AUD taking medication is the gold standard.

I’m joining AA today

Hello, my name is Dallin and I'm a recovering addict. I get the feeling most of the hate directed toward the research being accomplished on such a divisive yet important subject is rooted in a vocal minority who have less effective experiences with 12 Step programs. I can tell it may be painful or frustrating to hear 12 Step programs are one of, if not the most, effective treatments for addiction, especially if you didn't get the results you wanted. For the millions of families and loved ones who feel the impact of addiction in their lives every day, the results of this research will provide precious hope and resources that would otherwise be directed to less effective programs. Each step we take in the reduction of addiction in our society is a step closer to empowering the most vulnerable members of our society; the partners and children of people suffering with unmanageable addictions. Keep in mind, 12 Step programs, along with other effective treatments, reduce the demand for and spread of not just alcohol abuse, but also illicit drugs in many forms. These mind altering substances have a constant deleterious effect on the communities they invade. The effects of addiction are widespread and are likely harming the community we live in fight now. Feel free to ask your local law enforcement officer about how these substances affect your community. For those of us who would like to reduce the number of people in prison and resources going to government funded incarceration systems, this research is great news. If you would prefer the people in your community who may be unfairly targeted by laws or the people who enforce them to be able to get the help they need instead of being sent to prison, this research is fantastic news. Let’s put treatment ahead of prison. 12 Step programs shouldn’t be the only tactic we use to reduce addiction and its consequences. Anything that can show effectiveness needs to be implemented. We can’t afford not to try and we certainly can’t afford not to find what programs have the highest impact per dollar. The fact that 12 Step programs are almost entirely free and, as we learn from this research, as effective or more effective than much more costly methods is a public health miracle. Licensed and skilled mental health professionals who specialize in addiction recovery are obviously important for many people. Please use that avenue if it’s available to you. Use any method you can until you find what works for you. For most of the people afflicted with unmanageable addiction, the cost of even a few sessions with a professional is out of reach. The fact that 12 Step programs are nearly free, community based, proven to be effective and can grow and spread organically from within the community is about the best we can hope for. This research is currently showing our entire society can benefit from moving resources from the least effective efforts to 12 Step programs or professional help and be assured they will get the results they desperately need. If you don’t like the 12 Step program in your area, feel free to start one that meets your needs with more or less religious factors involved. The steps in the process are what is important. I try not to get caught up in whether one higher power is greater than another higher power, etc. Thank you to Mr. Corroll and the Healthcare Triage team for providing this and many many other informative and science-based videos that are so helpful and shareable. Keep coming back. ; ) virtual-na.org

@kd7jhd

2 жыл бұрын

I hope anyone who takes the time to ready my entire comment will understand one important thing. I believe this discussion is nuanced and difficult to be had in KZread comments. I rarely join the conversation. This is a rare case in which I believe it is important for all voices to be heard and considered for the benefit of many people who are less familiar with 12 Step programs.

@pokepaar3696

2 жыл бұрын

What a wonderful comment I have stumbled upon! I don't really have any first hand experience, but I do plan to be a psychiatrist, so it's interesting and eye opening to see how community help performs better than drug treatments of alcohol addiction

💙💙💙

AA does not have a good success rate, according to their own statistics. However, this is partly because AA members consider that anyone who stops going to meetings has relapsed. This is not true and has never been true. AA members do not know the effectiveness of their own message. It is AA's dogma that causes many people to drop out: the firmly held quasi-religious belief that no one EVER recovers from alcoholic use disorder; that one must embrace "alcoholic" as their permanent identity as a human being, and must go to meetings and talk about it for the rest of their lives. This creates more harm than good.

@somexp12

Жыл бұрын

Not really been my experience. From what I've seen, the more orthodox ("quasi-religious") they are, the less inclined they are to act like the Borg and threaten you with death (by drinking, of course) for leaving. When they get heavy into step work, they need an explanation for how all the more lax "meeting makers" are able to make it. Their explanation is that these people are *not* "real alcoholics" (which is a very distinct concept from "alcohol use disorder," btw) and that they never needed to be there. In other words, the more dogmatic they are, the less likely they are to recruit and the more likely they are to complain that the glut of mere "hard drinkers" in their meetings severely dilutes the message. Unless, of course, you find yourself in one of the cults or near-cults, such as the Pacific Group or, worse, Synanon. These tend to blend the worst of both worlds. That is, the cults blend the orthodox mindset of "you must follow my instructions" and the "meeting maker" mindset of "I'm allowed to make up whatever I want and you must smile and nod". Mix these and you have some ignoramus demanding you take career and medical advice from them. The orthodox "big book thumpers" tend to stick to step-work and don't assume qualifications outside of that.

I quite liked AA. I'm an atheist and AA is faith based but I found my group to be nonjudgmental about it. I haven't been to a meeting for around 15 years but some of the connections I built there have lasted and I no longer use alcohol. I'm not sure how much it helped but I credit it at least somewhat.

@Jay-ho9io

2 жыл бұрын

Glad it gave you whatever it did and more importantly, that things are working better for you in that regard than they were. 👍🏽 Good luck

@SpeakShibboleth

2 жыл бұрын

@@Jay-ho9io thanks!

How is this applied to other drugs? Are they specific groups that disaprove of AA approach.

@monicaperez2843

2 жыл бұрын

There is NA, which is a similar program for drug addicts. It is a lot less efficacious than AA.

@vincentwinqvist4023

2 жыл бұрын

@@monicaperez2843 I haven't actually seen any data on NA. Not questioning this at all! I'm genuinely curious about if there are any numbers to look at, because that would be neat!

The problem with a faith-based program such as Alcoholics Anonymous ... is that if an alcoholic has a relapse ... the guilt and depression can be compounded because of not only disappointing self ... but much more traumatic ... of the certainty that one has disappointed God.

wow, "high quality" studies indeed.

What I think this video misses is that abstinence is not the only way to recover from an alcohol abuse disorder. I would like to see studies assess recovery in terms of percentage of patients no longer meeting AAD criteria instead.

When a clove is thrown into water, it floats on the water. Cloves are like humans. The top of the clove resembles a human head. The clove grain stands in the water with the round top of the clove above the water. The clove is shaped like a bottle stopper. If you could magnify a carnation maybe fifty, a hundred times, you could use it as a wine bottle stopper. Cloves absorb water very well and swell. Can cloves save people from alcoholism? Can cloves prevent alcohol poisoning? Imagine that the water in which the clove floats is alcohol. Keep imagining that the carnation is human... Clove is like a person who does not drown in alcohol. Remember that cloves are a great spigot for the alcohol bottle you're addicted to... Now it is impossible to open the alcohol bottle. because the clove, which is a perfect stopper, does not allow the alcohol bottle to be opened. "Carnation man" does not drown in a sea of ​​alcohol. so as long as you consume cloves you will survive in alcohol. When you chew cloves, you notice that your lips and tongue become numb. Your tongue goes numb when you drink a high-alcohol drink. Is there any other herb that numbs your mouth like cloves? Clove is a pain reliever, alcohol is a pain reliever. Clove is recommended for fear and delusion in old herbal medicine books. People drink alcohol to forget their troubles. If clove could talk, maybe she would say to alcoholics: I have many similar points with alcohol. I can help you. (What I wrote cannot go beyond assertion and is only conjecture.) Also, the clove looks like a needle. Maybe a drug injection.

Cost is such a big factor here. AA is free whereas just about everything else costs and, if there's one thing I've learned from years of working with addicts, it's that they rarely have much money.

@sandrastreifel6452

Жыл бұрын

Except in the USA, treatment of substance use disorder is another part of our healthcare system, and there is no cost. AA is still the most easily available in every country I know of, though.

@Shadogi

Жыл бұрын

@@sandrastreifel6452 Yeah, our healthcare system blows

Personally I really disliked the meetings aspect of AA. What really sold me on it was personally meeting with one other man (sponsor) and working through the book with the steps. AA can feel like a social group but people always forget the damn book.

If AA is so successful why did Bill Wilson want to drink alcohol while he was on his deathbed?

I am pleasantly surprised to find out that AA has performed better in someone's metrics, but it doesn't matter. The program of recovery lives in print and the fellowship will continue to meet. It doesn't have grants. It doesn't have sponsors (pun intended). The people the courts send do not contribute more than other attendees, and in fact are not required to bring any money like anyone else. The slip still gets signed.

So it's not good, it's just slightly better than some other not good options, and it's down mostly to the social aspect.

Brazilian Jui Jitsu worked great for me ..something about getting worn out ragdolled and suffocated every night made me wanna quit drinking and start jogging

@tmak4699

Жыл бұрын

Get Off the bitch sauce!!!

@tmak4699

Жыл бұрын

It's making you a very weak man...almost a woman in fact

I think this will help people form new types of social-based treatment support methods that are similar to AA but don't include religious components. Awesome! That was always my 1 single qualm with AA.

@catzipper

Жыл бұрын

If you want to get sober & you can't or don't want to realize that it's not a "religion" & can't tolerate others, even in literature, talking about "religious aspects' working for them, good luck to ya. Hope you find tolerance, acceptance and a good whacjk to your ego elsewhere. Then you might have a 5% chance of any long term sustained abuse substance free living

@neonsilver1936

Жыл бұрын

@@catzipper I'm not addicted, I just hate that society purports that God is the only way to sobriety, when it obviously isn't. Religion has its benefits and its place, but forcing it on people who are ordered by the court to "complete" a program or get thrown in jail is absolutely against the principles of freedom of religion & separation of church and state

I was just raised by alcholics, and i was abused by them, so i just have alot of triggers towards them, so i find it hard to feel any sympathy for them.

I'd really like to hear about AA's own study into itself that was done once and only once. When they found that it was no better than placebo or going cold turkey stopping drinking alcohol.

@Snow-wz6eu

Жыл бұрын

AA does not do that. Can't do that. Because of the anonymity part. They are a million dollars pyramid scheme. With some good people in it. And some very, very sickos. Don't let your daughters go there alone.

Did these studies look at secular AA-like programs? I don't know much about them, but I know I've heard they exist. I see people arguing the comments about how religious AA actually is, but however YOU interpret your experience, I can say with absolute certainty that at least some AA groups are extremely religious and actively hostile to anyone who does not accept the god aspect (no, I don't mean "higher power", the places I've been are EXTREMELY christian)

Did the studies address AA’s problematic reporting? Not counting those that fail out/leave the program early as relapses, (because apparently relapses don’t count unless the individual completed the program) unlike how many other programs figure the numbers. Obviously this video is about success rates, but there is also a lot to say about the outdated steps and forced perception of powerlessness, among other things. Doesn’t mean it hasn’t helped people, but maybe there’s better way without god baggage.

Some branches of AA meet the criteria for destructive cult, and others are completely different. Whatever helps you, helps you, keep on giving up until you find something that works, I promise you will.

Ill admit im addicted to alcohol. But im a functional drunk. Meaning I can make logical decisions while under the influence, as if I wasnt drunk. Dont text an ex or a girl you like. Dont drive or operate a gun.... I like being drunk but I dont make those wreckless decisions.

63% failure rate

@Jay-ho9io

2 жыл бұрын

Which is a 37% success rate. Which is only bad if many or most other interventions had a higher success rate. Do they?

@wmdkitty

2 жыл бұрын

You mean 95%+

You don't have to be 100% abstinent to be a successfully recovered alcoholic. You just can't put abstinence as the only parameter. Any research that does that is faulty from the beginning.

The overall success rate of AA as a stand-alone therapy for alcoholism is less than ten percent. But it has an unofficial benefit of allowing people to meet, and get to know each other. Lots of friendships have been formed at AA meetings. I know a few guys who attend AA meetings six days a week. They go because there’s coffee and doughnuts, and they can spend time with their friends. Those are good reasons. I’ve personally attended AA meetings a few times, and found that the best AA meetings occur when a speaker has been scheduled. There are some charismatic people, both men and women, who speak at AA meetings as a public service. And they really draw a crowd. I’ve heard some wonderful speeches, that were both poignant and funny. The speakers, who are recovering alcohols, usually travel between a dozen different locations in the same town so that they can help and entertain a wide audience. And they do it for free; because for them it’s a way of spreading happiness and good cheer. The best speakers even get a standing ovation. So I thought it would be nice if AA meetings were posted on a local website similar to Nextdoor, to inform the AA public about who would be speaking, when, and where. This matters because the AA meetings with a speaker are much more powerful, and if recovering alcoholics could choose to attend meetings with speakers, then the overall success rate of AA might go from 8% to 30%. And to be honest, there are plenty of volunteer motivational speakers who aren’t recovering alcoholics, but are still a wonderful source of encouragement. Lots of people just need cheering-up. So there’s a question: Can the grim philosophy of AA as a place where you go when you hit rock bottom be changed into a more optimistic view of life? If AA allowed a range of speakers, instead of just recovering alcoholics, the AA meeting rooms would be packed every night. Comedians, Coaches, and Preachers. Tell those guys to shoot the works! But AA is just a government sponsored hate-machine. They would never allow happiness to spoil their political agenda. Perhaps a different organization could be formed which allows people to meet, and listen to good advice for a change. But Washington D.C. would have a heart attack. So maybe they should shut-up, and turn their lives over to a high power. That’s what they tell everyone else to do.

Having an ice cold beer while watching this.

@Jay-ho9io

2 жыл бұрын

Enjoy

It’s a spiritual program because addiction a spiritual sickness. It works.

Ends show with “Weed, really appreciate.” Seriously

If you want to quit drinking you will. Period. If you don’t want to quit you won’t. That’s about it. Everything else is an excuse.

IF PEOPLE GO INTO AA INSTEAD OF A BAR , IT'S A SUCCESS !!!!!!!!

I don’t support a lot of what AA does, but this really isn’t surprising. Their service is basically a mutual aid, giving people exactly what they need for free whenever needed without judgement. Everything else provided by our healthcare system (as pointed out) falls far short of that, is often simply inaccessible or unavailable when it’s needed, *and* costs a butt ton money. I know these are services and people deserve to be paid, but they will never be able to measure up to the universal availability of AA.

Disappointed by these results, because any reason to stop courts from sentencing people to a program that infringes on their freedom of religion would have been a good reason.

"Cognitive Behavioral Treatment cost about 7k a year" and all my stupid brain comes up with is "Damn, CBT is expensive!"

@Macaroth1

2 жыл бұрын

He said it costs 7k more though

Thanks for this episode, Doc.

Doesn't the fact that AA emphasize an all or nothing approach effect this? Its entirely possible to go from being an alcoholic to a person with a healthy amount of alcohol consumption. AA pushes the idea that even one drink will transform somebody back into an alcoholic. People from other programs may very well just be drinking healthy amounts.

The study was quite flawed

I am not now, nor have never been, addicted to drugs. That is why I am wondering if the amount of willpower needed to stop using drugs completely is enough willpower to use drugs responsibly?

@RedisFun2

2 жыл бұрын

Some people are predispositioned with addictive disorder - once that switch is flipped (addiction to said item) , will power alone will almost never be enough.

@therabbithat

2 жыл бұрын

@@RedisFun2 afaik there is zero evidence for a predisposition to it. If you don't have any other coping mechanism, and you get traumatized, you will overuse your one coping mechanism. It doesn't matter what your genes are. Also if you feel disconnected or unloved, drugs can trick your brain info feeling love. So friendship groups can help.. but anyway the *addictive personality* thing is a myth, usually applied to trauma sufferers

Personally, I have some issues with the details of what AA teach - but I do have to acknowledge that is is the BEST AVAILABLE treatment for most people. Of course we need to research even more effective ones, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't recommend the most likely candidate we have right now.

“Keep coming back, IT WORKS”. But 12-step programs were never meant to be the only alternative! Thanks so much for the research review.

Maybe I need to go. Ugh...

@Jay-ho9io

2 жыл бұрын

Your choice. But if you're not comfortable with your interaction with alcohol, by all means, seek some route to become so.

@therabbithat

2 жыл бұрын

They have open nights that anyone can go to and that don't require you to speak. You could see if it's your deal, if not there are a lot of routes to recovery and I know you'll find one that works in the end

@wrongturn09251984

2 жыл бұрын

Goto a variety of groups. You’ll likely click with one of them even if the 12 step stuff isn’t your cup of tea. Most of the work happens outside the meetings.

The biggest issue with AA is it's dependence on religion/religious belief. It would be nice if there were a publicly funded, secular/inclusive service that used the AA model w/o the religious mandate.

I don't like AA system, I prefered last November to be hospitalized 3 weeks to stop drinking, then I am followed by a psy.

@Jay-ho9io

2 жыл бұрын

I hope that works for! Sincerely. Good luck.