twenty fours minutes of watching viper doing fuck-all while waiting to die. riveting stuff.

@partydean17

2 жыл бұрын

I'm shit at this game and even I would have done something to get past the wooden palisades. I mean what was going on here?!

just wanted to thank you for always having new content when I get to KZread, it's crazy how fast you can churn these out. THANKS!

Viper needed to take the sacred sites as soon as he hit castle. Putting a clock on the Chinese boom would have helped imo

@92Adzy

2 жыл бұрын

Great idea.

@riveradrew2153

2 жыл бұрын

You can try that but trust that a good China player will come at you hard within those ten minutes

China is op af. -You can tower rush your enemy and deny his eraly agression. -IO can turn 1 archery range into 3 archery ranges so longbows can never outnumber you. French knights can never fuck with you cuz you will have insane amount of spears in no time. -You hit 3rd age and you get terminator super siege units triple faster then your enemy. -Your nest of bees can outrun infantry -Your palace guards run as fast as a cav (im not kidding there is a very small difference) -Your cannons will nuke anything before you can even see them.

@hzhang1228

2 жыл бұрын

interesting, the newest upload is also English vs Chinese played by vortix as Chinese and he lost... no mention of Chinese op there. as a matter of fact they are not there every time Chinese loses but always there when they win. hmmm. aoe is a strategy game with many aspects that need to be managed to execute a plan. each of the "op" aspect you described is only one aspect out of many that need to be managed to execute, that is where the balance comes from. every civ has eco boost aspects, for China it is the imperial officer, if used to boost military they lose out on economy while still requiring resources to pump out units, that is the balance. spears are not the end all be all unit, same with knights. if you make you army entirely paper then it will be countered by just a pair of scissors, as it should. the clocktower is the only good landmark China has while most games will require building more landmarks many useless in most cases. nest of bees is just a weaker mangonel, if you take away the speed they are redundant that's the balance. palace guards are the weakest maa and are weaker to knights, basically a weaker knight without charge. take away the speed again equates to redundancy, that is the balance. and then there is the bombards, they don't have the strongest cav, infantry, archers, but what they do have makes the entire civ op? they don't even have imperial anti siege siege weapons, or aoe ones either. take away their buffs means making a landmark to produce them again, redundant. plus the extra range is a research, not getting gains for cost is pointless. everyone has unique tech. you can throw trash units to counter bombards. at the end of the day it is a battle of economics. like i have said the game is not just one element, one aspect. it is a strategy game after all. if opponent is faster they are weaker, if they are stronger they are slower. if you cant attack head on attack everywhere else. saying they can have too much spears, a trash unit for knights is too one dimensional, fine they have a lot of spears, wasted resources standing around, control the map with your knights if producing archers is too much of an annoyance.

@robocopter2534

2 жыл бұрын

China is not weak, but they are not op at all! Mongols are :D

@poijupoij

2 жыл бұрын

@@hzhang1228 no. they are op

@hzhang1228

2 жыл бұрын

@@poijupoij yes. the earth is flat

@poijupoij

2 жыл бұрын

@@hzhang1228 it is in this game

Since it's almost impossible to collect all the tax gold on some of the production buildings, I thought it would be cool if the Chinese could use that tax as a percentage discount on upgrades for that production building.

@yabayaba8267

2 жыл бұрын

Actually there is a tech in the imperial academy which can increase the ability of imperial officer to carry the gold from 20 to 40 with only around 75 wood +125 gold as I remember. I think that is a quite important tech comparing to the gold haven't been collected during whole game.

@jpaxy

2 жыл бұрын

I think it's far more valuable to have imperial officials supervising than collecting gold. Maybe there could be two versions of the official one which is slightly cheaper and has a different cap number that can only collect taxes.

@TommyFit7

2 жыл бұрын

sure let's buff the chinese i don't see what could go wrong

@BeckJoseR

2 жыл бұрын

@@TommyFit7 tweek them. Not a straight buff. Tax is nearly pointless. Some changes are needed to make it usable, otherwise just remove it. Balancing China is needed too, Clocktower siege is OP late game. Maybe increased training time, or cost. They're special after all, workers need to take their time.

@rickf6375

2 жыл бұрын

@@yabayaba8267 upgrade is practically useless, buildings will generate a lot more tax than what can be collected even with the upgrade and you benefit more from supervising

The fact springalds are still being spammed is all the evidence you need that siege is broken.

That was a great game, brilliantly played by Vortex. The first game I've watched which Viper has lost. I learned a lot from this.

@nevous8

2 жыл бұрын

viper messed up, many noobs would have a larger army than his, he was sitting at around 2500 res not doing anything and had too much food. if he had more wood he could have had nearly 20 lancers to deal with the backline and would have been able to resecure map control. aoe4 is a hard rts even when you aren't getting pressured, common mistakes happen all the time.

Wall building directly AFTER or during transition to the second age is peak time to draw lines man. Great strategy on how to play Chinese without needing the fourth age to seal the deal

@berserk1934

2 жыл бұрын

They just need siege to seal the deal. Every match is a siege to seal the deal. This game is so unbalanced.

I used to play Abassid, HRE, and Delhi and start losing most games due to China. Started thinking I was just bad, eventually got fed up and started playing China. Currently on a 12-game winstreak and having the easiest time of my life - as someone who plays China, they need a BIG nerf!

@deusvult9439

2 жыл бұрын

Yes. I am tired of getting China diffed

Nice to see that even the best players have no counterplay/ answer to that ridiculously safe chinese boom and unbeatable army age 3

Love that camera movement on that fight

Viper should have probably gone for a forward castle

dude you are so good at what you do!

The hill looks amazing..

I really think every seige unit for every civ should be 2x the price. Make seige not as prominent; extend the mid game

@superstar5042

2 жыл бұрын

They are already cost a lot. They just should not be so hard to kill if you jump on top of the siege with your melee units. They have too much hp and speed and almost always can run away or just survive untill your army kills enemy army that jumps at your siege.

@alexsitaras6508

2 жыл бұрын

Siege needs to be slower. It's just silly that it can out run infantry. I also feel like siege was more vulnerable to cavalry in AoE3 since it didn't need to be torched.

@barendsteenekamp3853

2 жыл бұрын

I feel like making the population cost of siege higher would also be a positive change. That way players would have to choose to sacrifice more field units for the same amount of siege. This seems more balanced to me since siege is capable of easily killing multiple field units whereas one MaA cannot kill five MaA.

@deusvult9439

2 жыл бұрын

I think they should take X2 dmg from melee units and that's it. And remove the ability to build siege on the field to the mongol.

@Daniel_deez_nutz

2 жыл бұрын

I agree with the comments on here, just half the siege speed and you are probably good to go!

Should've built some early rams as soon as he saw those walls.

@Craysus

2 жыл бұрын

or just kill the barbican

@TevionErazer

2 жыл бұрын

lets say he HAD two rams at the point where he was there with his first 10 longbows. The villagers at the barbican will just shut them down, and you cannot approach with your longbows, because of the range of the Barcican (3 shots for a longbow) and Vortex already had 8 archers of his own. And that only if he had them at that point. Building two rams wouldve costed him 150+175+2*300 = 925 ressources and about 3-4 minues of time. At that point china wouldve laughed about it. Its just so frustrating to play against china!

Great match

I really wish there were more maps on this game.

Viper fucked up real bad. Honestly I don't see why going for Longbows post castle age is a good idea. Normal archers in general just seem pretty useless at that point in the game and a better choice would be to go for cav + crossbows, aswell as trying to keep up the pressure on the Chinese and making it harder for him to expand. Viper played it way too passive here.

@MrNotesofmusic

2 жыл бұрын

He was mad tilted from the last game.

@chasm671

2 жыл бұрын

His opponent was playing as China and had shielded himself against an early game trash army assault. There was no way for Viper to win against the inevitable siege spam assault so he just put up some pretty castles and went to make toast or something. China seriously needs to be nerfed, I do like the idea of a civilization that you need to take out early on if you want to conquer it, but that tactic is too easily countered and once China goes Imperial there's basically nothing you can do. It's very unbalanced, and it's not even justified by historical accuracy; inventing gunpowder did not make the Chinese undefeatable masters of the world, they were still getting their shit pushed in by tiny island nations well into the 20th century. I'm starting to suspect the developers are licking China's arse because they have their eye on that market.

@superstar5042

2 жыл бұрын

@@chasm671 "its very unbalanced" Well, say hi to the Relics. They do it in every their rts. They think that if every civ/team got someop sht its balanced

@AlanLamb11

2 жыл бұрын

@@MrNotesofmusic I think that is probably true, just watched that game with no deep fish that was only a few minutes before this one- you could tell Viper wasn't really thinking here. build lb, see walls, do nothing... might as well just tapped then. grabbing sacred sites and forcing vortix to do more than boom while going maa and crossbows vs the palace guard and siege could have allowed a map control win but it would have been a tough game for sure but viper just gave up. english lack of cav isn't too bad vs most civs but vs china and abbasids it truly delhi it shows.

@rawfrequency1453

2 жыл бұрын

a nobody giving advice to one of the best aoe4 players, get outta here let me see you do better before you critisize someone way out of your league hahaha

"Think about it from Vortix' perspective. He vonts to make valls."

3:36 Viper *writes* the memos

China mid to late game siege is just busted, can you ever win vs that push?

@lineasevenadam5009

2 жыл бұрын

No

@gustavohopkins242

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah scouts lol

Watching my Aussie brother on my bday yeeeeeew 🍻

I know you ranked the Brits mid level but they just seem to not have versatility to deal with some of the build especially China. Do they need something to change? Something I never hear about as well is the treb unique unlock, is that any good at all? And the gunpowder multi cannon, it seems effective when I use it but I never see competitive players use any of these buffs that are unique.

Viper did fuck all, he basically stood there waiting for the chinese to kill him. Like wtf?

If your opponent is expanding with walls, then my guess would be that counter walling is your answer if you can get the stone eco. Even wood might be enough to slow your opponent.

I hate the astronomical clock tower, its too OP for china. The only counter is wipe them early and if a game lasts 10 mins whats the point

@MrNotesofmusic

2 жыл бұрын

The game has balance patched it’s way to longer games - so china is just OP till astronomical gets looked at.

@hzhang1228

2 жыл бұрын

lol that is the only good landmark they have. be weird to make a landmark for a unit and produce the same units... making the landmark redundant. and since they can only make one landmark it means you can outproduce it. you can also out mine gold or gold starve them. way too many anti siege methods and aspects in this game to say one unit is the end all be all for any civ. China does not have the strongest infantry, archers or cav. even for siege the nest of bees is weaker to mangonels except speed. not to mention they dont have imperial aoe siege or anti siege units. the game is not one dimensional. focus on your strength and your opponent's weakness instead of tackling your opponent's strength head on. go watch the latest upload to see vortix lose against English as Chinese. you would also see there is no China op in the comments there lol

@thefirst165

2 жыл бұрын

@@hzhang1228 Judging from your username you are a bit biased, but, you’re also wrong. China has great landmarks (when considering they aren’t mutually exclusive, they need to be weaker) that play into their playstyle very well. I have started playing exclusively China and have yet to lose a single game (12 games played) - they are just too easy. Calling their late game “broken” is an understatement. Besides, the only real counter to China is a true ALL-in, which is the only difficult thing to handle, but if you do hold, you win.

@hzhang1228

2 жыл бұрын

@@thefirst165 my username equates to bias? the irony is oh so thick. and your reasoning for my points being wrong is they are great in your opinion? the landmark is good when factoring two vs one? you have yet to lose a game means a single variable can represent a statistical mean? there are more than one China players are they dominating? are the top players always winning using China? holding against opponent's strategy results in winning is op? solid argument against my bias.

it happens to everybody, we have games where we play better than normal and games where we play worse, viper did pretty bad on this game compared to his normal ones.

makes me sad to see my favorite player go down. Congrats to Vortix. -Outlaw.Saint

Missing out of the bonus gold/wood/food from IOs the whole game is probably not a good idea.

How do the Mongols do ...with their mobile town halls ..

Damn viper got clapped

YEAAHHHHHHH

So many uploads. So many dead vills lmao

Best chinese camp. Should have more walls

Viper hate Blacksmits xD Deja vu

4:45 you mean layout of the map

Viper should have playe more active, build rams early on and push, also getting the site earlier puts more pressure on the chinese

@bradrio2826

2 жыл бұрын

I agree, he probably regretted the lack of a blacksmith early on

I don’t understand why you wouldn’t build imperial officials. Even if you literally did nothing with them at all all the game. They’re still gonna walk around giving you free gold. 3 IO’s walking around giving you free gold and leave one on the clock tower.

@robocopter2534

2 жыл бұрын

just put 1 on gold 1 on food 1 on wood and they have insane vallue. If you have 20 vills mining gold one official is worth 4 vill‘s. I really don‘t understand why pro players are not doing them so often. I think they don‘t play that much chinese and are unsure about the power of this unit.

@ShaggyLunchCake

2 жыл бұрын

@@robocopter2534 The cost of imperial official is x3 than a villager, takes 20 seconds to build. Id say unless the value of the official is worth 2.5 villagers, then it isnt worth making. No reason to use the official before you have x10 vils on a resource.

siege at this moment is too OP it has to be nerfed, maybe less speed or less hp or more population cost

How come I never see any wololo?

What is the name of this map?

This match makes me sad.

idk why i just think viper really underperform in this game

@TevionErazer

2 жыл бұрын

Really? Well what could he have done? English vs Chinese... if the chinese puts his first landmark in a safe spot to secure both food and gold income until age 3, like Vortex did. What are you gonna do as the English? Your ONLY trump card (the longbows) are totally useless against that.

The viperRrrR

VIIIIPAAAA!!

Im still quite a noob but i think english have a better late game economy because of the amazing goldfarms. 20 barracks go brrr, nonstop

Didn't theviper emoquit aoe4?

NERF CHI-NA

I’d love to watch more of your videos but the titles seem to spoil the results. Would be cool to see more ambiguity in that department

can you cast games of beastyqt?

Officials: Useful for troop production Useful early on Useful for collecting tac when the gold runs dry..... Otherwise, why?

@moonmankelvin3453

2 жыл бұрын

Always good to have it on that Clocktower indefintely

@RongDirection

2 жыл бұрын

I believe his complaint is more under the control of the official. It feels difficult to manage them. I personally would hope they can make a better UI to indicate what each official is doing, like if he's supervising a dropoff point, how many vills is dropping there and if he's supervising a production building, is there anything producing, so I don't have to click through each single one of them every few minutes.

@khalidgagnon8753

2 жыл бұрын

@@RongDirection they aren't always the most ah.... Easy units to micro...... The buggy ness is a problem. But.... Part of the reason you might only use them in specific areas

@gustavohopkins242

2 жыл бұрын

Thry should only be supervising resource drop offs. They give you alot more resources for nothing. He would of won way earlier had he had some officials and wheelbarrow

Gooday

I stopped playing AOE 4 after 2 days when it released due to the nature of rushing Siege units... They are the only relevent unit to SPAM and it happens against EVERY opponent. You dont have siege? You lose.

This viper guy is such a noob.

Dinnersty

China is known for its walls lol

Why does it seem like all these pros suck with the English?? Viper literally just sat back and let the Chinese build up to late game and then surrendered soon as they push out lol what a nub

In my mind if you can play greedy you can compete with china late game...... Certainly not impossible: Mongols - 2tc and silver tree.... Abbasid - 3tc standard English.... Squeeze in the extra Tc and get free wonder tc as well... 3 TC for the price of 2 essentially (I know china late game is powerful..... English have gold reserves to last (enclosures) English have great archers, great Arty, great cav...... Am I missing something?

@SoulTransient

2 жыл бұрын

Clocktower

@Raxxes

2 жыл бұрын

english artillery gets clapped by china's

@MrAtaguas

2 жыл бұрын

You are not going to last long enough to see the farm enclosures doing their work because as soon as china can mass bombards, nest of bees, fire lancers etc etc they will run through your base

@JorenMathews

2 жыл бұрын

Artillery needs nerfing so that having the best artillery doesn't automatically make you the best late game civ.

@TommyFit7

2 жыл бұрын

how english have great cav and great art? they have absolutely no bonus for them

I don't know, I still prefer the good old Age of Mythology.

another game by the viper, how unexpected...

i think viper needs to rework all his strats. he lost a lot of games in the last videos...

@rbhatt2247

2 жыл бұрын

He was busy winning back to back biggest aoe2 tourneys, so...

This game is just not made for micro god like Viper. How the hell do you except him to win??

The imperial academy should automatically collect tax gold in its AOE.

viper didn't play this well, made lots of mistakes

i wonder if you still think imperial is crap

China is so fucking unbearable on turtle maps i'm not a great player by any means but I have legit NEVER beaten one....

Idk why but for once I wish you would say “welcome back to another AOE 4 casted game” instead of just saying “casted game”

hey Drongo, i realy n-joy your streams, so...thank you. pls dont mind, i am german and my english is far from perfect, but please, the plural of bonus is boni, never bonuses, boni, it is boni :)

@callanbrown8571

2 жыл бұрын

Lol. What hocus pocus English school did you go to? It’s bonuses!

ew !

Wall up everything. Sit you army at home doing nothing and twidle your thumbs while u mass OP siege. Honestly it's just bad game design.

@RyanshawMe

2 жыл бұрын

Exactly. AOE2 did it better. Now we got boring game play, walls, and OP seige balls

@rickf6375

2 жыл бұрын

imo the english are perfectly capable of not even letting the game get to imperial vs China

@NONO-hz4vo

2 жыл бұрын

@@rickf6375 Well Rick that seems like a baseless claim in light of the results we see at the top level. Maybe amongst the less talented of us this is possible but vortix just showed how smart base design and patience can make the early game trades unfavorable. From there it is just a matter of time.

Such a boring game. The chinese player spends maybe 300 wood on walls. Then for almost 15 minutes we see the English player trying to pick things to slow his boom, he can't. He's behind. He lost.

15:25 ahhhh, you got a dislike and lost a sub by saying "at this point in time" I mean why say that ? Any time reference is by virtue of its context either a point or a range. So... just say "at this time" Groan