Interesting. The real failure of the APT was most likely due to the short term view of government in the UK and the dislike of spending money on infrastructure. However the APT was not a complete dud. The technology was sold to the Italians who produced the Pendolino now running on the West Coast mainline.

@heinkle1

3 жыл бұрын

Irony of ironies - we’ve imported back in our own technology. Is there anything more British?

@tiadaid

3 жыл бұрын

As a foreigner this boggles my mind, really. The British government lets go of the technology, only to import it back later...

@heinkle1

3 жыл бұрын

@@tiadaid I’ve spent some time working in government and the reality is there just isn’t enough commercial or technical expertise to know what to do. So we made a mess of TSR-2 or Concorde and have since become very wary of trying to “pick winners”. The private sector does that best... except for things it won’t take risks on, like massive public infrastructure.

@Then.72

3 жыл бұрын

@@tiadaid The British government also put all that money into VTOL research then made the Harrier which proved itself a good aircraft in the Falklands then handed it to the US

@RWL2012

3 жыл бұрын

I heard that ironically the Super Voyager's tilting system is technically more related to the APT's than the Pendolino's one is - not sure if this is right...?

It was products like this, Concorde, the InterCity 125 that got me in engineering.

I traveled on the APT to London, they were doing staff trips. I worked on the railway. It was brilliant until it developed a problem with the tilting mechanism and had to slow down. A bit more money and time spent on it would have made it a world class act. The technology was used on the Pendolino and worked perfectly. The government wouldn't invest enough money into the railway, instead, they scrapped the APT when it was nearly sorted.

@raulbluesman9463

2 жыл бұрын

Interesting story, thanks for sharing! that's the story of many first-mover projects sadly. And politician aversion to anything that would benefit everyone and not line their pockets.

@InverhavonRailways

2 ай бұрын

The REAL problem with the APT was the fact it would be driven by Trade Union members, and thus didn't fit in a certain government's agenda, much like coal, shipping and other nationalised institutions....

This train was miles ahead of its time. If only they actually took the time to sort the issues with it

The problems sound like a British Leyland Jaguar. You needed a spare box on the back seat to carry all the bits that used to fall off

@13strange67

2 жыл бұрын

Alas . . . the box was never (could never be) big enough !

I remember seeing one of these broken down at Watford from my old College at Water Lane,as youngsters we marvelled over how modern it looked,as for us we were studying car mechanics and thought front wheel drive wouldn't catch on,fun to look back.

Still the BEST LOOKING TRAIN EVER

@anzladner6766

3 жыл бұрын

I agree

Actually remember watching this when it was first broadcast - I was 10 years old !!

That final comparison with the TGV project said it all really... made the APT sound like a half-baked patch-it-up solution cobbled together from spare change next to the TGV, which had everything thrown at it and the government abosolutely behind it, no matter the cost. As with so many things in life, you get what you pay for!

The livery survived the demise of the APT and lasted until privatisation.

Still got my boxed Hornby APT, from 1981 ish..... every day it goes up in value.

@markpunt9638

3 жыл бұрын

😀

@drubber007

3 жыл бұрын

What is it's current value?

@coogeeman

3 жыл бұрын

@@drubber007 pushing 250, not bad for a 5 car set.

@richardmcgowan6383

3 жыл бұрын

I entered a competition to win one of those on Multicoloùred Swap Shop. But sadly, without success.

@MrNellie65

3 жыл бұрын

Hornby are making a brand new model of this,with all the coaches available,so you are no longer limited to the 5-car train,you can make the 7,8,10,12 and 14 car units as well!Interesting that he says it affected the sales of the model,not where I was concerned it didn't,I wrote to the factory asking when the rest of the coaches were coming out.Only a 39-year-wait!Lots of people are looking forward to it,a lot of stockists have already sold through their allocated stock.

I think the class 91 and mk4 sets were based on the APT-U as the mk4 coaches could of been made to tilt

It has to be remembered that both the Voyager and Pendelino used this technology to great effect, it wasn't the technology that suffered but its application and the continual drip drip death by a thousand cuts delivered by Thatcher's government which pushed Major to privatise it all thus the technology was snapped up on the cheap. The Pendelino's and Voyagers both showed that with evolving modern technology, the task became truly "doable" and this year I took a 390 from Glasgow to Euston and what a ride it was, so smooth and effortless, a million miles away from the days of MK1 stock and changes of diesel to electric and vice versa that plagued the London to Scotland runs of my youth. Its a shame that the other star of that time, the HST is being phased out for modern joyless, soulless plastic junk that is made on the cheap with every profit earning corner cut and life expectancy a fraction of the HST's reign over the lines.

@dodgydruid

3 жыл бұрын

This too was the first real use of hydrokinetic regenerative braking, it was so advanced and damned effective too halving the full speed to full stop time thus improving rail safety immensely. Its also rumoured that the E's gas turbine may well end up being looked at again as an alternative to oil in areas where overhead cables are prohibitive as are battery powered trains becoming a reality.

Talk about health and safety haha that guy right at side of the train while he was testing it rocking sideways lol good job it didn't malfunction and tipple over on him

This was the first time that something failed due to its technology which resulted in revenue losses and lead to the closure of the APT. The tilting of the train and running those on old tracks really paid off but in a negative way.

@AndreiTupolev

3 жыл бұрын

except it didn't, it was working very successfully except the media decided to sabotage it as part of their hatred of BR

@mrrolandlawrence

3 жыл бұрын

@@AndreiTupolev and their love of motor cars and their industry bought nice column inches in the papers! the trains not so much.

I would have loved to have travelled on the APT which looked really exciting and even today does not look to have aged. Travelling on the Settle & Carlisle before it was famous with threatened closure I always looked out for the APT when i made this journey which i did a few times but it was never seen while i waited at Carlisle station on my way home.

Seen it at Crewe a couple years ago,.quality.

Brilliant

The WCML locomotives ended up being replaced by the 110mph Class 90/Mark 3 formations instead.

The X2000 developed in Sweden has been used since 1989 and has tilting technology. I also think there is the Italian Pendolino with tilt.

@coogeeman

3 жыл бұрын

Not sure about the X2000 but the pendolino uses the technology derived from the APT.

@Keithbarber

3 жыл бұрын

@@coogeeman the apt was not in vain even if br couldn't get it right

@coogeeman

3 жыл бұрын

@@Keithbarber I totally agree, it seemed to me both the HST and APT programs were very separate and therefore too costly. The APT was even more advanced than anything before it and extremely challenging. However it was restricted by the, then, current signalling. Oh, and we all know how hungover the press was on the maiden journey, together with initial runs done in appalling weather. Such a shame really!

@Christian-rj2yc

3 жыл бұрын

@@coogeeman As an engineer I recognized the challenges when they talked about longer bolts and stiffer flange to remedy bolt fatigue in the wheels. I think the X2000 also had fatigue problems with the wear ring around the wheels. Wasn't there a german train that had a deadly accident due to fatigue in a dual rim wheel with built in rubber springs?

@Frserthegreenengine

3 жыл бұрын

@@Keithbarber Well the APT could have got it right, but due to budget cuts and political pressure they were forced into service before their problems were ironed out. If they had received proper funding and if BR had been on board and behind the project fully, the APT would probably have had a different story

As a foreigner, I can't tell if there is any kind of bias, politically, in terms of the coverage of this nees. Is it liberal, conservative, or unbiased? Does such a question even apply for such coverage of such a news story in the 1980s in britain? Honest question here, very open to learning more. Cheers

@nkt1

3 жыл бұрын

There is no political bias shown here. Obviously, the impending decision to terminate to program was political, but this is a fairly neutral discussion of the APT's benefits and technical shortcomings. I suppose the tone is somewhat negative, but the APT had a very poor reputation by this point, and the writing was on the wall.

@th8257

3 жыл бұрын

Can't detect any political here whatsoever here. Worth noting that the UK has strict laws about avoiding political bias on TV.

@EgoShredder

3 жыл бұрын

@@th8257 Shame it was abandoned years ago. The bias on TV in the last 20 years has been strongly marxist liberal left wing.

@G12GilbertProduction

3 жыл бұрын

It was more unbiased news than today, and more author-created without the additional scriptwriters.

@nkt1

3 жыл бұрын

@@EgoShredder What other sort of tilt would Marxist liberal bias have?

APT-P was far from perfect, it had issues, but people forget, it was APT-P, P meaning prototype. How could you expect it to be perfect in its prototype form? BR was rushing as fast as they could with APT-P to meet the 1976 projected delivery date of P trains but of course this didn’t happen and even while running behind schedule the train was still not exactly quiet ready for passengers and press. The first runs of APT and its failures in front of the press plus the addition of the fact the train was running behind projected delivery dates was the nail in the coffin. From this point the press and government had decided that APT would fail. The budget cuts, the smear campaigns on TV/papers and lack of faith in the project killed it when it was so close to completion. 90% of the way and then they killed it and sold off the technology. Now surprise surprise the technology has been repurchased from a country who gave it the time and money it needed to succeed. Really a shame. I suppose if I were to be critical of APT it would be that the project could have been managed better by BR as well as the fact that APT would have really only been used on the WCML making it an expensive solution to one single Intercity Route. WCML could have had much faster speeds almost 20 years before the 390’s of today, but instead it was left to turn into a decrepit, slow and outdated trek that nobody ever would want to take unless they had to.

Biggest issue other than money.......BR ignored all the designs and technology plus research from APT-E because they were not train men. E train had minimum issues, BRs P train riddled mainly due to ditching the hydraulic tilt swapping it fir air springs, changing the braking systems etc, etc. Bad management, bad government funding, bad attitudes and bad communication more so bad press like this! All killed a wonderful train :(

@michaelgrey7854

2 жыл бұрын

Finally someone said it. The E train was great..

Would have worked better if anyone could of understood what Glasgow shields Road staff said, all I understood it was pish.

@nkt1

3 жыл бұрын

This teuchter understood every word they said. Incidentally, “could of” is certainly pish.

At least the intercity 125 was a great success!

As a Londoner - Gordon Hill, Enfield, north London. I think the new routemaster bus went the same way as that train - when pm Boris Jonson (then Mayor) and Thomas Heatherwick both made fanfare and couing at this bus - it would have a conductor to assist the driver/to man the open rear platform - this would have a large swing door that the driver/conductor would open at low speed/in stop-start traffic to allow passengers to hop on/off, and close it at high speeds, it had sealed windows because the air conditioning/climate control was [apparently] very efficient - no need to open them, and the traction would be; hybrid/extended range, electric propulsion, diesel generator type. Unfortunately despite the hype made by BoJoe and Thomas, it did not live up to their claims - the conductors didn’t materialise (I think TFL had them on the trial buses, but ditched them for being too expensive to employ?) and the open rear platform went the same way - functioning as a 3rd door - only opening at bus stops, and as for the sealed windows - while these buses were introduced, London had a 1 day heatwave = the poor passengers complained that they were being cooked/the a/c wasn’t working and they couldn’t open the windows, and with air pollution - the traction battery’s started falling, causing these apparently hybrid buses to be permanently in diesel-electric/generator mode. Before COVID-19, I have been on one of these buses - the 149 route, and was unimpressed with the hybrid system appeared to spend an equal amount of time in diesel/electric mode. The recently liquidated Wrightbus - who had manufactured them, was forced to modify them The open rear platform was replaced with a sliding plug-door that opened with the front/central doors at bus-stops, they didn’t fix the crappy climate control and installed vintage style sliding windows to please the passengers. I think it was one of the various vanity projects by Boris and is more of a tourist attraction than a bus ☹️

"We didn't quite get it right". Don't hear that as much anymore, huh...?

14:00 why does this hold up? Wich , yes but one only has to look at current/close past state of railways in britain

I don't understand why this "investment" in England failed. Our x2000 in Sweden is based on almost identical technology. Please explain.

Seems to me the British never really stuck to a new technology while overseeing and fixing all teething problems.

They should have introduced the mechanical aspects of the APT in new versions of the HST. First new version make it electric, second new version keep it electric but bring in the new bogies and couplings. Third new version keep it electric, new bogies with new couplings but also bring in the tilting mechanism. Introduce new innovations slowly after fully testing them, that’s what killed off BR’s APT they tried to do too much too quickly.

Could someone upload the Horizon programme 'Running to time' about the APT. It was on KZread years ago but disappeared?!

@johndonaldson3619

3 жыл бұрын

yep - i can do that

@andrewball5569

3 жыл бұрын

@@johndonaldson3619 brilliant! Can't wait!

I thought the top speed limits on the WCML for everything was 110 mph anyway back then 'till it was updated about 15 yrs ago? 🤔

@PhilSmith71

3 жыл бұрын

The tilting technology of the APT would have allowed it to take the many curves of the WCML at a far higher speed. Also, at a guess, the current Enhanced Permissible Speeds for the Pendolinos on the WCML would have probably been introduced in a 1980s guise for the APT.

5:22 - 5:32 - "BR engineers have gone to elaborate lengths to resolve the problem of the loose bolts.......................every single bolt has been FVCKING TIGHTENED!!!!"

Fantastic train best of British

Can anybody spot the error in the description?

@maraskywalkeriii

3 жыл бұрын

Yes

@Keithbarber

3 жыл бұрын

1983 should be 1984

@0800338833

3 жыл бұрын

‘ATP’ ?

@travelbuzz1

3 жыл бұрын

Ah, yes, this was an episode of TV Eye (and on Channel Four, as well?). This Week wasn't shown between 1978 and 1986

@musmodtos

3 жыл бұрын

Haha I was going for _ATP_ but I'll bow to all Greater knowledge

FIAT; Pendolinos; Alstom; Class 390.

@mrrolandlawrence

3 жыл бұрын

yes ironically they could see a good technology and bought all the research data from BR and then sold it back to the british.

Director of Engineering, Ian Gardener (-Gardner? -), you could have at least combed your hair! It was your big day, on the tele!

@calumbaxter9946

3 жыл бұрын

He looks like he has a fur lump on the side of his head, just like my cat does 🤣

@jasonayres

3 жыл бұрын

@@calumbaxter9946 😅 His missus could be heard for days later, exclaiming to the world, "I told him to get a hair cut!" .. Or is that just my missus I can hear in the background?!

@MajorKlanga

3 жыл бұрын

When you drink as much as he looked like he did, combing your hair would be the last thing on your mind.

Great British engineering almost guaranteed to fail, hence we no longer have any engineering sector left now

@laurencecope7083

3 жыл бұрын

British engineering is still the best in the world. It was due to government incompetence it failed.

@norman7527

3 жыл бұрын

@@laurencecope7083 Laurence, I'm not sure what UK you're living in... there's hardly any engineering to speak of apart from foreign multinationals? I do agree a more than century ago we used to have amazing ship builders, steam etc but we've been long surpassed by innovation.

@sim6699

3 жыл бұрын

If we have no engineering sector, how come most commercial lanes have Rolls Royce engines?

@andrewyoung749

3 жыл бұрын

@@laurencecope7083 yes, but thats what happens when you give control of such to government-government decides and government usually decides badly. BR,BL,British Steel, Upper/Lower Clyde shipyards, coal mines all flourishing world beating destroyed by nationalisation and government control.

@Frserthegreenengine

3 жыл бұрын

No British Engineering is still great, it's just that our own government lacks faith and confidence in it and would rather go cheap. The APT partially failed because the Tory Government slashed funding towards the project which in turn forced the APT to be rushed into service before the Design team wanted it to.

0:53 ?

Well here we are 2022 and Britain has a successful Pendolino tilt train and yet the top speed is still only 125MPH exactly the same as the ultra successful HST sets which date to 1976. The key is MONEY as world leader in electric traction the French know very well. If you want fast trains then you need dedicated track with minimal curves. Perhaps collectively the failure of the APT led to others looking on and getting it correct.

Thank god none of these brains were used when designing the spitfire or hurricane

@nkt1

3 жыл бұрын

Actually, experienced aircraft engineers were involved in the project from the beginning. As a result, the APT was a clean sheet design; light and efficient, but full of novel technologies that couldn't be made to work reliably in concert. By comparison, the HST was an evolution of existing locomotive and carriage design, fully compatible with existing infrastructure, and a resounding success.

I'm pretty sure if these APTs met the health and safety standards, they would have carried on running on the lines for the pessengers into the 2030s but unfortunately, they were worse then the diesel locomotives.

A bit more time and investment could've led to a fantastic train.

This was even more ammunition for Thatcher's plan for rail privatization😒

@wombat1238marsupial

3 жыл бұрын

@@CS88754 The underlining framework was carried out in the 1980's. In an attempt at streamlining BR sold off it's hotels from 1982, Sealink in 1984 swiftly followed by their engineering arms. Privatised freight was started by Foster Yeoman and the rail regions as we know them began i.e Network South-East.. All the foundations in place. I said it was Thatcher's plan.

@andrewyoung749

3 жыл бұрын

should never have been nationalised. we had four superb innovative companies that were replaced by one appalling nationalised one. the main legacy of which is the fact that the labour party used its periods in control to slash the network and withdraw services under the fraser/castle cuts which have of course been masterfully and dishonestly rebranded as the beeching cuts. Also the billions poured into the wasted dead end of dieselisation rather than keeping steam and ten years later going direct to electric. as already envisioned by the southern b, but useless br couldnt see it. And of course everything you listed, the totally connected services with boats and hotels alongside the trains were all set up by private companies and destroyed by br. give government control get the sort of decisions government control delivers.

@Frserthegreenengine

3 жыл бұрын

@@andrewyoung749 Well you realise that the Big Four ran out of money and were worn out after World War II? The Railways were broke and were struggling to cope with the Post-War economy, there was no choice but to nationalise the railways after the war. However, I would agree that the Beeching cuts and modernisation plan were faulty at best, and electric should have been invested earlier.

@andrewyoung749

3 жыл бұрын

@@Frserthegreenengine yes but that was government action. The government decided to nationalise rather than compensate the railways. The locos immediately got slower and weaker, the castle/fraser cuts happened as you noted. Fifty years of stagnation. Which had followed on from a century of progress on the railways.

@thelasttimelord7550

3 жыл бұрын

@@andrewyoung749 well, you should remember that we were broke as well. We couldn't compensate or hand out a bailout to the companies when their was too many risks involved e.g would they be able to recover before consumerism restored and would the bailout force spending cuts elsewhere. I think the Labour Government of the day saw nationalisation as the option with the less risks (it was also an ideological decision) and tbf we've effectively had the railway nationalised since 1939 and that meant we had the skills to manage it

This could be Used in India.

A.P.T ACCIDENT PRONE TRAIN

Did not fail certain things wanted putting right but than the government pulled the plug . If that got another 6 months it would have been ironed out. Lets not forget some of this technology was new it is used today on every new train built-in every country. So please stop slagging uk off and let's think of all the amazing things Britain has invented and so on.

TGV cant be compared to APT, TGV runs on dedicated lines which are mostly straight....whereas APT was envisaged for existing rails in Britain....wish they had researched more otherwise it wouldn't have turned out to be such a colossal failure.

@andrewyoung749

3 жыл бұрын

its a halfway house. as good as it gets on existing network. pendolino proves it works good enough. re France the only other option is to construct a whole new network as you say. frances old network still there and pretty crappy.

@ChrisCooper312

3 жыл бұрын

France had the advantage of lots of space to build new lines. The original route from Paris to Lyon, France's biggest and second biggest cities, is about 390km, passing through very little. Head in a straight line north from London in the same direction and you're around the level of Newcastle and Carlisle and not that far from the Scottish border. You've already passed the UKs second(Birmingham) and third (Liverpool) cities, in fact you've shot by 9 out of the top 10 biggest cities in England.

@SKumar-kp7fq

3 жыл бұрын

@@ChrisCooper312 If Britain had the same advantage i don't think it was willing to spend.

The reason it failed was because of it’s counterbalance technique that made the passengers ill , it had to keep the passengers level but when they lessened the tilt they lost the speed so it became not much better than the intercity 125 but at a much higher running and maintenance cost.

@ChrisCooper312

3 жыл бұрын

The speed issue wasn't anything to do with the tilt. It was because of the signalling. APT was designed to run with in cab signalling which was needed for the higher speeds (most countries use it for speeds above 100mph), but this was never fitted. The problem is still around today. The Pendolino is capable of 140mph but is restricted to 125mph due to signalling. The tilt issue was mostly that the tilt was too good, it removed the cornering forces too well which caused people to become disorientated and sick (not helped by the copious alcohol served on the first press run). It could have been fine tuned to deal with the problem. The tilt system was also too complicated and not reliable. The Italians simplified it for the Pendolino.

@Then.72

3 жыл бұрын

@@ChrisCooper312 many documentaries I seen in the 1980’s stated that the angle of the tilt played a major roll in the downfall of the speed as was the idea of the tilt due to west and east coast main line being full of bends. The Pendolino doesn’t tilt anything like the APT did

@sutherlandA1

3 жыл бұрын

Didn't some journalist get drunk on its maiden voyage exacerbating the motion sickness tilting in corners?

@Then.72

3 жыл бұрын

@@sutherlandA1 probably but that wasn’t the cause of their sea sickness , the view from windows caused that like it did with many sober passengers

Now thay want a high speed rail link to Birmingham!? Thay definitely know how to weaste money...

@sim6699

3 жыл бұрын

Economy is trashed and they want to put our grandchildren in debt for High Speed Rail, who's cost to build would make tickets too expensive average Joe

ah cancel culture 1980s style!

Well if nothing else, we Brits are the most successful failures in the world. I'll settle for that.

@Frserthegreenengine

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks to our own government. We Brits love being ahead of everyone and come up with revolutionary things, but the Government cowardly makes our own achievements fail in favour of cheaper foreign ones.

@seansands424

2 жыл бұрын

The government makes us fail

They're about to attempt similar here in California. PURE grift/fraud. To say there's limited need would be a lie that there's ANY NEED (or want). It's criminal to the core.

@nkt1

3 жыл бұрын

There's no need, or want for a high speed train service in California? Lol.

@th8257

3 жыл бұрын

The problem here was that they were testing new technology to address an existing demand. In California, as I understand it, the whole issue is to try and get people out of their cars.

@bryanguzik

3 жыл бұрын

@@nkt1 wasn't aware that was remotely controversial statement. I see I should have refrained being so sweeping with my words. Looks like I've found someone with reservation @ 12 years & $100BIL+ in the future. Or for $60 you could go now. Or drive. Or fly.

@bryanguzik

3 жыл бұрын

Oh of course, wasn't attempting apples to apples. But you are right, the GOV'T's WANTS are about only reasoning for it. Making the corruption that much worse. Since the ones with cars (us) never asked, and service already exists. 12 years & 10's of Billions over, and counting. Gov't control = Gov't "results". a/k/a central planning.

@nkt1

3 жыл бұрын

@@bryanguzik Public opinion surveys have shown at least 50% support for the concept, so of course your assertion that there is no "want" is controversial. Many countries have built high-speed rail links between major cities, so as to reduce car and plane journeys, amongst other things. For some reason, this is anathema to a great many Americans.