For future reference Cold Steel = always disproportionate drama music

@eyeofthetiger4184

10 ай бұрын

G'day mate, .... ok, ......... are you referring to an over zealous advertising campaign, lol, or you just reckon they're over rated ? ..... I reckon .... they're pretty well situated, (but sure, not the be all and end all,) in the market, ... time will tell going forward. Cheers Duke.

@eachday9538

10 ай бұрын

@@eyeofthetiger4184 I love me Cold Steel! 2nd most recent purchace was a Rajah 2 which is my current at home edc pocket carry. I have a bunch of other stuff like Spetsnaz Shovel (although I modified the handle), Talwar 4 inch (although I modified the handle), original Talwar XL in CTSXHP, Hold Out 1 in the same steel, plus I carry a SR1 everyday as my work beater, and have a Magnum Warcraft Tanto in 3V (although I really hated that handle and recently filed it down to shape) that I used to take my old job when I worked more in wilderness. So, yeah, I like their stuff (except maybe sometimes the handles :-). Also, saw a recent interview with Stickman on the Knife Junkie podcast and it seems like the brand is in good hands moving forward. But when Pete is selecting music from his files definitely the over the top category is the appropriate one. Cheers

@eachday9538

10 ай бұрын

@@eyeofthetiger4184 ... actually, come to think of it, I modified the handle on the SR1 also!

@eyeofthetiger4184

9 ай бұрын

@@eachday9538 Hahahaha, I'm with ya now, the light bulb is on. I didnt notice to be honest, I've been watching the channel for so long and I still often dont pick up on particular nuances til the 2nd or 3rd look. Thanks for pointing that out mate, I'll keep an extra ear open in future. Yep fair to say some of their handles are better than others, the ones I have are passable for the design intent IMO Drop Forged Survivalist, (scaled version), I may still wrap it as well. A Recon 1 drop point in S35, (which does fit my hand very nicely), and a Finn Wolf, (just to have a folding scandi option). I'd get a Bushranger for more girth, but I'm not a huge fan of clip points, I am very pleased with the Tail Boss axe, (boiled linseed oil coming soon), and there's many more of their products I wouldn't say no to either. Lets hope they dont go backwards like many others have. Hava good one mate.

@eachday9538

9 ай бұрын

@@eyeofthetiger4184 Nice selection, and yeah definitely strip any lacquer go with regular linseed oil maintenance, it's a nice finish. 50:50 with mineral turps is what I was taught, and apply every day for a week, every week for a month, every month for a year, then as needed at least once a year. I think you can get a way with less, but it's a neat rule of thumb. I've read some people also put an equal portion of tung oil into their mix too, I don't know why exactly, but apparently it's also a drying type oil with favourable traits.

Once again.. you are doing the exact testing I’m looking for.. that’s just weird! Always doing a great job Ada! Keep Cedric busy in the mean time! 🇺🇸

Love these vids!! Keep em coming Pete!

Nice to see Bricky keeping a level head

Ff16 had some really good music, never gets old.

Worksharp had a paper cutting contest at BladeShow this year. Everyone but a couple did horribly. Pete should come one year with his best unleashed edge geometry and technique.

@nandayane

6 ай бұрын

Pete would be the paper cutting chad

Let’s go love 80crv2

@lalli8152

10 ай бұрын

My favorite budget friendly steel. Maybe because so many knives here in finland are made by that, and the company that manufactures most of the blades here thats also made the blade on Terävä knives seem to have nailed the heat treat for that steel.

@-Agis-

10 ай бұрын

Laurin Metalli is the blade manufacturer. Also makes the blades for Woodsknife (which are finished by hand..or should I say Finnished 😅) One of the absolute best blademakers in Finland, the heat treatment is always spot on!

It is interesting to note that even the humble Hultafors have the very decent SK5 steel . I have the OK1 which is a great value knife . It only cost £15 a few years ago here in the UK.

You're *always* the nerdiest thing I see all day

@FerociousSniper

14 күн бұрын

Outdoors55 has entered the chat.

Coffee's on me, mate. Thank you for the awesome content!

I put about a 20ish degree grind on my SRK. It came as dull as a butterknife OOTB, and had several low spots in the secondary bevel. I spent a couple hours getting those low spots out. Now it'll slice paper towel.

Thanks again mate....I really like 80crv for my carbon steel.....if I my be so presumptuous....I would love to see a comparison between 80crv and 12c27.....both are a similar price for the raw material.....but given I live in Darwin I tend to use 12c27 on my hard use knives simply for the corrosion resistance. Anyway loving you new found burst of creative energy!

Classic Pete

I have both and enjoy both knives.80crv2 is definitely my favorite of the two.

Wonderful choice of music as always

Thanks for that bit of knife nerdiness, Pete. I've long regarded SK5/SK85 with respect, because my experience of Cold Steel knives made with the stuff is that they are RIDICULOUSLY tough, sharpen very easily, and take a vicious edge. In recent years, Work Tuff Gear has been producing small batches of knives, mostly from SK85/SK5, and their performance has been comparable to, if not better than, ESEE's 1095.

That cutting board is beginning to look like Willie Nelson's guitar.

You could do: 1. Edge retention test (which you did) 2. Beat the crap testing + microscope to see how the edges react to this type of use. Seems like a good idea for the vid 😂 great work recently Sir!

Needed my dose of nerdy knife stuff to start the week, thanks Pete😁👍

Dude, I watched an older video of yours the other day. Where Basel is holding you hostage and your wife left for "Uh.....milk".😅 I nearly shat myself laughing.

@LisaInTheSkyMU

10 ай бұрын

Do do do do do do knife lab

Scrambled eggs living rent free in my head.

We need a montage.

Hey Pete - Dr Evil called - he wants his kitty back.

I'm watching stage 2 of the Vuelta in a few minutes so my day will get nerdier than this video could make it. Primoz!

Cool video; loved the bonus dramatically sullen cat content

Interesting comparison. Makes sense that they would be comparable. Kind of like 1095 and 1095 CroVan.

I sent my Terava's across large diamond hones until they became true zero scandies up to 1200 grit, then using increasingly finer 3M adhesive honing papers on glass I honed them to a mirror finish and near atom-splitting sharpness - no joke, I thought it was shaving hair but it was also legit filleting skin. Found tiny little pocks on a 1 inch patch that were bleeding like carpet burn - anyway.. then I move on to a leather strop with Tormek paste for routine touch ups. The super fine edges damage easily, so slowly micro-convexing the edge with the strop makes it much more durable and stropping it from then on is very easy because the wide flat scandi area helps hold a steady angle. It'll only ever need honing if it gets damaged.

that steel composition app can seemingly report both the EU and german specs for 80CrV2. sounds trivial, but the listed compositions suggest two steel grades of vastly different properties. in EU spec .45% carbon is permissable at the lower end, for example ~ whereas german spec permits no less than .75% carbon. that's pretty different.

"Honey, please stop doing dumbass things!😭 You're not Ifrit!" Find the flame intensifies 🔥 Firesteel scraping ✨ in the dark. Sharpening knives 🔪 like a boss. Basil 🐈, son of Basil, the heir to the chair mountain, is giving you... That look! 👀

Does your cat look a little like Lynn Thompson, or is it just me?

@benjaminhamilton2338

10 ай бұрын

Omg, he actually totally does! Lol.

@monkpato

10 ай бұрын

That's hilarious!

Thanks Pete! 👍

The Cold Steel SRK is one of my EDC knives. It's an all around decent quality knife.

I've been told from multiple sources, that SK5 is essentially equal to 1084/85 carbon steel

@clintwestwood3539

10 ай бұрын

They are correct.

80CrV2 From a chemical standpoint it is very interesting. It has 0.80 Carbon which is what I consider the sweet spot (Specifically Edge holding and toughness) for knives, and it has a little vanadium and chromium for controlled grain growth. Steel talk always remind me of the knife steel that should have had a chance but did not get it (Cru Forge V).

@just9911

10 ай бұрын

I thought you could still buy that stuff

@johnsmithfakename8422

10 ай бұрын

@@just9911 Looking around I can only find one suppler of "Cru Forge V." I only found out about the metal from Knife Steel nerds.

@jkanecutlery

10 ай бұрын

CFV has great edge stability.

Hi Pete ! Good explanation of the SK 5. Mine is an older SRK, so Carbon V. Don't know where it falls but has been holding up well.

Love your channel Pete, Your knife comparison videos are always in-depth, well articulated and informative. With Cold Steel offering the SRK in CPM 3V, what other steel would you compare it to? Cheers.

I love you so much❤❤❤. Your videos are great to watch while sharpening. Always a good time.

Good timing I just got a sk5 srk-c and I have always liked 80crv My srk is orange so it might preform better.

Work tuff gear sk85 and k329 would be awesome tests!

Thanks!

Which handle do you prefer? The handle preference seems to give me a steel bias. Luv the Jakaripuukko!🇨🇦

Thanks for your work

I have both and prefer more 80crv2

so much content lately!

Loved the dramatic music when it was not necessary. How about some hard testing on a Sebenza, or other Chris Reeve Knives?

I'd love to see a little toughness testing on that SRK to see if the edge can withstand that bevel angle 🙏

@acid6urns

10 ай бұрын

sk5 steel is tough as nails it’s literally even tougher than 1095

@JohnFrumFromAmerica

10 ай бұрын

​@@acid6urns1095 is not tough at all. Go looks at knifesteelnerds testing.

@acid6urns

10 ай бұрын

@@Butch_Deezlsteak what the fuck are you smoking the only steels tougher than 1095 are other basic ass carbon steels. do you mean EDGE RETENTION? bc that’s not the same as toughness genius

I’m sure how you know.. it seems like you’re always making videos just ahead of where my mind is going! 😂. Love your stuff.. always honest.. 👍🏻

Nerdtastic levels of overdramatisation!

I’ve had both. Much prefer the kydex sheath with the cold steel.

@MB-jg4tr

10 ай бұрын

It's not true kydex, CS's Secure-Ex sheaths are glass reinforced plastic of some type, and the sheaths dull the blade edge unfortunately. Good sheath otherwise.

5:19 EIKON FIGHT

To win a competition look for grain direction. Paper is rolled out at factory. Slice with grain, hand your vicious cocky competitor the cross grain. The grimace will satisfy justice! Cross grain secret is only for gentile homies!

Good Nerd morning to you too 😊👍

All HAIL. BASIL!!!!!😼

Your vids are the best 👍

Yes, thanks for The content. 80crv2 is very reliable on Extreme cold conditions like - 20 -30'Celsius degrees. It won't shatter into pieces while batoning firewood. Marttiinis chromium steel also work in very cold conditions. Its very different to know what actually Works than just guess.

I celebrated your choice of disproportionately dramatic music by ordering a Bricky sticker. Good call.

BASIL!

I have an SRK from the 80s that’s “Carbon V” and I have no idea what that is.

A pegboard background with various hanging tools might be a nice touch …$.02

5:20 special guest appearance!

Pete woke up and chose JRPG boss music.

Do you find that the 6" stones sharpen faster than the 4" KME stones?

Very cool.

what do you do with the rope you cut? That must be a heck of a lot!

Cold Steel hardens their SK5 steel too high Rockwell IMO, making it brittle. The new budget SRK With the hollow grind has a much thinner tip(than the older versions), which is particularly prone to breaking. Older saber-flat grinds are more durable, and suited to the blades design purpose.

@DDDYLN

10 ай бұрын

I wish Cold Steel would return the SRK to the old flat grind (but without the huge ricasso) as opposed to the hollow grind with the weak tip. I'm clueless as to why they made the change. I bought the CPM-3V version of the SRK, solely for this reason. Yes, it was over 3 times the price. I sometimes wonder if that's why Cold Steel changed their most popular knife, to a grind no one likes. Both the San Mai 3 and CPM-3V have the same flat grinds. Only the SK5 version has a hollow grind. I guess it's a good way to steer people towards the more expensive knives.

@MB-jg4tr

10 ай бұрын

@@DDDYLN I still have an original carbonV version, it's taken some severe punishment, and it's still holding strong.... Well, my GF fell in love with it, and she didn't have a strong large fixed blade, and she begged me to give it to her, so I did. That's love. It wasn't easy to part with. The large ricasso is a bit much I'll admit, I could choke up on it and get my index finger over the ricasso for finer push cuts and delicate tasks, but it wasn't the most comfortable thing to do. I've been missing it, even though my girl has it and would surely let me use it if I ever needed, but I have plenty of other blades so no biggie really. I've been keeping my eye on the 3V and waiting for the price to become reasonable again as I've missed a few chances, and it did... I just purchased a CPM-3V version with New Olive Drab handles and sheath! $105 midwayUSA. Haven't received it yet and I'm excited.

@DDDYLN

10 ай бұрын

@@MB-jg4tr that's a ridiculously good price. I typically get the best prices at Chicago Knife Works. I think I got the CPM-3V version for $137. Heck, maybe I'll buy a 2nd, if MidWay is still having the sale. All that said, I'd honestly prefer to have the old Carbon V version, even with that ricasso. I know a bit about different knife steels. CPM-3V is tough stuff, and while not stainless, it has decent corrosion resistance. I honestly don't care that much about corrosion. Most of my knives are full tang high carbon steel. I oil them regularly. I have a few stainless blades, just in case I'm going somewhere near the sea, or I know it's going to be very wet. I'd have to read up on it, but I'm not sure any of these super steels can compare to well heat treated, high carbon steel. Congrats on getting a great deal. Mine certainly came crazy sharp. Even the back swedge is sharp enough to cut your finger, if you slide it along the swedge.

@DDDYLN

10 ай бұрын

@@MB-jg4tr so, Midway still has them on sale. I checked Chicago Knife Works, and the CPM-3V versions of the SRK are out of stock. I hope Cold Steel isn't discounting it. I'm very tempted to buy another one, as it's such a practical knife. However, if CPM-3V prices are coming down, I think I'll put my money towards a Trailmaster in CPM-3V. That thing is probably Cold Steel's best large blade.

I kinda want to get rid of the micro bevel of jaakari and make it a true scandi, but idk if its a smart idea considering the 59 hrc. But bps also have 58 hrc with scandi and 1066 which does hold an edge really well

How do you feel about At The Drive In?

A very fluffy cat!

The tips on those Cold Steel SK5 SRK's snap off really easily, I think the SanMai or 3V versions would be a better comparison to the Terava , I don't think you have ever tested those 2 versions before , any plans on testing those ??

@otobotrecords

4 ай бұрын

80CRV2 wouldn't hold a chance against 3V.

@michaelstjohn6086

Ай бұрын

@@otobotrecords hmmm

What do you guys think is the best steel for an outdoor bushcraft/survival knife i know heat treat is important but ive heard either magnacut or maxamet

@otobotrecords

4 ай бұрын

3V for bushcraft fixed blade. Magnacut for EDC folder.

How many cuts did the cat perform?

hey pete how about a link to the other knife I can't find it anywhere

But which Parmesan cheese is the best cheese?

Hello, which is tougher, 80 crv2 or sk85?

G'day Pete, interesting findings mate. Not sure about SK-5, but certainly the SK-4 Silky uses is effective, lol. A bit more Carbon in SK-4, but still, they look very similar to me. Anyway, I picked up the Terava 140 recently since I wanted a larger scandi and something a bit better than a Mora to fill a niche. So far I'm on the fence as to the micro bevel. Yes its a departure from a traditional scandi, though out of the box and with only light stropping since, it has remained razor sharp, ....... in fairness I haven't had a decent crack at Redgum with it yet : ) ..... we''ll see if it stays or goes in the longer term, ....... but I'm think'n a lot less metal to deal with if it stays. Cheers Duke.

@stevanoutdoor

10 ай бұрын

I think the micro bevel on a scandi grind knife is the old way and the scandi to zero (with no secondary bevel) is basically the new kid on the block. It makes the edge weak but it's a hype. I always strop them before use.

@eyeofthetiger4184

10 ай бұрын

@@stevanoutdoor G'day mate, I've always thought the micro to be a more modern variation, thanks for the info. Cheers Duke.

@stevanoutdoor

10 ай бұрын

@@eyeofthetiger4184 'Puukko' in Finnish just means knife but relates to the smaller everyday carry fixed blade for all daily small tasks. Like in warmer climates the folding pocket knife is used for. But when your already freezing your balls off you don't want to take off your gloves and fumble around trying to open a folding knife. So even the smaller bladed ones, like the grandfather and grandmother knives, had a full size handle. These knives often came off factory or maker with a scandi to zero blade but you were supposed to put an small secondary bevel on them or it will happen with use (sharpening) anyway. A scandi to zero is just to weak for these every day tasks. I was testing an Enzo (now Brisa) Elver in Colombia and the edge rolled on me trying to carve hard wood. I have a video on this. I aligned the edge and gave it a good stropping so it had a small convex secondary edge and it performed well ever since. Nowadays this 'scandi to zero' grind is kinda a 'hype' people buying expensive water stones and spending a lot of time keeping it. The use of the 'Puukko' also has changed to hard use knives. When you buy a Mora 511 or 546 you know the spine is not finished and you don't take it out of the box and start batoning hardwood with it. So people don't expect this. Expectation is the mother of disappointment. But if you buy a Hultafors GK or Mora Robust (carpenters knives) or for instance the Mora Garberg or Varestuleka Jarakipuukko you expect them to do the hard work right away since that's how they are advertised. So the factory already gave them a small secondary bevel making them stronger so you won't be disappointed. But they are still scandi grind knives, just stronger. Before I take out a scandi to zero knife I always strop them so the get a small secondary convex. This is what was done in the old days also as far as I understand and read about the history of these knives.

@eyeofthetiger4184

10 ай бұрын

@@stevanoutdoor "Expectation is the mother of disappointment" good one, so true. Anyway, very interesting stuff mate, thanks for taking the time. Until now, I've only had a few Moras and a CS Finn Wolf in the scandi realm, and at the other end of the scale, only a couple of full flats, the vast majority of what I have are sabre ground of some description. However, on the trail, I'm a strong advocate for pairing a primary "big fella" and a 5-6 in. secondary blade, and in doing so, I like to take two different grinds, including tip styles, to cover the widest array of possible tasks. The proviso being the secondary must be able to get you out of strife should the primary be lost or fail. Thanks to a recent epiphany, i.e. if you're out in the woods, why wouldn't ya have a better than decent, specialist woods, or bushcraft, knife lol, ...... (I would have preferred a stain ... less job for my climate, but having had a Skrama 240 for some time now, I'm confident in their 80CRV2, and which surprisingly, hasn't oxidised up like I thought it would), hence settling on the Puukko 140 to fill that role. (I cant bring myself to rely on a Mora, or the like, away from a well provisioned camp site). Anyway, yep it does make sense that a more obtuse angle will be stronger, though you'd think even without it, all that metal at a zero scandi edge would still be very robust. A matter of degrees, I s'pose, pardon the pun. Fair to say it's easy to end up with a micro bevel, and indeed a convex one, ........ whether you mean to or not, lol. and yes, obviously far less steel to maintain. All things considered, reckon I'll stick with the micro angle and be done with it. Thanks again for the info mate, restores my faith in YT, ... hava good one ; ) Cheers Duke.

@stevanoutdoor

10 ай бұрын

@@eyeofthetiger4184 I agree (largely) with your assessment. My 'trio' is an SAK and or Leatherman as pocket tool(s), a food prep (and fine wood carving) knife and a (rough) woodwork knife (including batoning). The 'foodprep' knife having a thin uncoated stainless steel blade in the 'puukko' style with a plastic or kydex sheath and both knife and sheath must be easy to clean. My philosophy is that I have to be able to piss them clean and just use a minimum of fresh water to rinse them off. I keep this one very sharp (just a very small convex by minimal stropping) A Hultafors RFR or Mora 546 fall in these category. The Mora Companion is a great knife but with the rubberized handle a bit harder to clean. The 'woodwork' knife can be (coated) carbon steel, has a thicker spine and I agree with the high scandi or saber grind with a secondary bevel. It can be as small as a Mora or Hultafors or as big as a machete and everything in between. This one is sharp but with a different stronger edge (more convex aka stropped more). I also agree I must be able to do everything needed with any of the knives (or machete) in case off los or failure. Where I understand the 'fear' of just having a Hultafors or Mora I don't agree and don't have this fear personally. Among the knives JoeX is his 'crazy' destruction videos could not break are the Hultafors GK and Mora Robust. Other way more expensive (full tang) knives did break or even snapped like a twig. I'm still a fan of full tang knives. Last but not least, travel. When you go visit a country with unclear knife laws or basically no knife laws at all, you are now at the mercy of the customs officer who often considers your 'intent'. An (non locking) SAK or Leatherman can be explained as a tool and are well known also. A small fixed blade camp knife to do some cooking is often also acceptable most of all the simple Mora and Hultafors because they basically look like kitchen knives with a sheath. A large knife can be seen as a 'weapon' and a big chopper, ax/hatchet or machete they might wonder if your gonna chop down their forest. So I trained myself to do everything I need (although it might take more time) with a simple SAK and a Mora/Hultafors. The SAK is the least likely to get confiscated because it's known all over the world as a backpacker tool. I have had no problems or even asked questions about a simple Mora or Hultafors but even if they confiscate it (I will have to look for a local knife) I have lost some 7 euro and not 300 euro. When I travel to a country where they use machetes I just visit a local hardware store and buy a local machete. They are usually very cheap. I'm a knife collector myself and have a lot of knives. But if people think they need a new knife for every task they should invest in their skills and not knives.

Man l that’s one healthy cat

You read my mind Pete! I have been considering a purchase of that SRK. Currently $38USD on the jungle. I can't decide between the SK5 or the San Mai @ $90USD. The jungle screwed up my last order and gave me a gift card to buy my loyalty. I can get the SK5 for $3USD. Any real benefit to getting the San Mai? Thanks Pete!!!

@krazmokramer

10 ай бұрын

@@beowulf_of_wall_st thank you!

Wow, your videos are coming out at the rate of eggs from a hen. 😅 👍

ver nice i like

Comment for engagement

Well worth the wait till the end for the cat. Just sayin.

terava puuko

I think 80crv2 is the best

We need music sources man

@MrDarrylR

10 ай бұрын

Don't recognize this, but it seems about 66.6667% is from either the Final Fantasy X or Outer Wilds video game soundtracks. Good picks.

You’re really trying to get me to replay as a different house aren’t you? It’s been like 3 videos in a row….I’ve only done yellow so far.

🤓, hmm. Yes. Quite.

The kat is not impressed.😁

Personally I love both steels in fact I’d rather have a knife in them then in the fancy pants designer steel that has the steel nerds creaming their drawers. In my experience toughness an ease of sharpening is better then super steel that is brittle then takes 35 minutes on a diamond stone just to get the chips out. I haven’t found the super steels to be that super in my opinion. At least I don’t see $150+ difference. Usually the difference is very small especially if you get a proper edge on a knife. I like convex grinds. But I’m also the guy carrying a xl vaquero in my front pocket and a fixed blade on my back.

I have seen a lot of your videos because we share a sort passion for knives and sharpening. But bro, it hurts me seeing you sharpening, even with all the systems you have I see you make many mistakes. And yes, you can sharpen them really sharp but it hurts me looking at it. I do sharpen myself and I am in no way a master but I sharpen free hand on whetstones, it was a learning curve for me as wel. But I like it, i can get them very sharp and with a nice edge. In no way I try to get mirror polishes but it will polish out on some grits I use. If it gets polished it is okay for me. But I just want a good sharp edge with some retention and I always ask myself why isn't he trying to sharpen free handed on whetstones, if you F.U. you can easily restore the edge on one of your systems. It is just my opinion but for me sharpening is a skill you have to master if you love knives and use them a lot. You can get very neat edges using a system but you do not need any skills for that. I like good old handy work, even if the results aren't that good but you will get there. I learned it very quickly but I am used working with my hands and all I do now is perfecting my skills. It is just my opinion and you are free to do whatever you want but I do respect it when people go out od their comfortzone, and remember, every master was once a disaster. Wish you the best and keep em coming, regards from the Netherlands.

@krazmokramer

10 ай бұрын

@observeyourworld5872 SIMPLE ANSWER: repeatability. You can't hand sharpen multiple blades and have the same angle on every blade unless you use a set angle system. If you are testing, you need to eliminate as many variables as possible. And who says hand sharpening is the "correct" way to sharpen? Regardless of the technique, if the blade gets sharp...mission accomplished. To each their own.

@Phil-S8

10 ай бұрын

No one gives fuck. It wouldn't be scientific if the edges weren't as similar as possible. And what mistakes is he making? Crawl back to your hole...

@zoiders

10 ай бұрын

This channel is not for you then.

@tombrown4683

10 ай бұрын

​@@krazmokramerI've been sharpening freehand for a lot of years. Seen people use a lot of different methods. As long as the knife gets sharp it doesn't care.

@observeyourworld5872

10 ай бұрын

@@krazmokramer it is very good possible to do that, but you will need a lot of practice for that. And it is just my opinion, i do not like those systems.