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@christiandauz3742

2 жыл бұрын

Imagine if the Bronze Age had access to the Pike-and-shot warfare and technologies Humanity would be much less aristocratic and more democratic

@arnijulian6241

2 жыл бұрын

​@@christiandauz3742 The ancient democracy is very different to classical democracy that lead to 20th centuries democracy & the joke that is the 21st centuries democracy. Even with said Pike & shot how would they govern half way across the globe? Arms alone are not enough to enforce the governance of a political system. Ancient democracy was the founding but has little in common with it's much better later alliterations. Aristocracy's from former feudalism's grip was mandatory to give raise & response of true democracy now called classical democracy that also unfortunately laid the foundation communism in predominantly the third French revolution & the consequence lead to many dire results such as Marx's in works between the 1850 to 1860 . Marx's worked would lead to communism & in response extreme nationalism would result as fascism occurring from notably the combination Maurrasism with Sorelianism just before 20th century leading to Benito a former communist turned fascist forming fascist Italy in 1929 as a response to the USSR formed in 1922 with soviet Russia as the head formed in 1917 after the collapse of tsar Russia. Even the USA is flawed democracy according to the global index. Ironically my land of the Union of the kingdom's great Britain & Northern Ireland is considered a full democracy as a 'parliamentary monarchy'. You can't make this up even if you tried, the world is a ridiculous place!

@christiandauz3742

2 жыл бұрын

@@arnijulian6241 There wouldn't be a warrior class though. Spartans wouldn't exist. Priting Press and Paper vastly improves literacy Large stable-ish nations would be the norm not small city-states. Tribed and Horse Nomads wouldn't be a threat to civilization.

@arnijulian6241

2 жыл бұрын

@@christiandauz3742 Warrior classes existed before Spartans, Why are you on about Sparta anyway!

@christiandauz3742

2 жыл бұрын

@@arnijulian6241 First warrior class to come to mind. They wouldn't exist had the technologies of the 1600s existed during the Bronze Age

I love how you connect the dots, many people go straight from phalanx to tercio to Gustavus, sometimes mentioning the Swiss, but skipping the Scottish and Dutch influence. Great video!

@SandRhomanHistory

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks man. But to be honest, we did that as well in some of our older videos. That's why we felt we need to make a broader overview video!

@ElPavesaroTergestin

2 жыл бұрын

The role of Scottish is quite overstimated. In Italy at the begging ot the 14th century we can find spears of 4 or 5 meters.

@J.D-g8.1

2 жыл бұрын

@@ElPavesaroTergestin True, in Giovanni Dall'agocchie's treatise the instruction on how to set up infantry formations IS a pike formation, and doesnt even explain why the pike is used, its just considered obvious. He goes into some detail over how to place armored vs unarmored pike men (use a couple of rows of armored pikes in the front row, etc) This treatise is from ca 1570

@J.D-g8.1

2 жыл бұрын

I just checked; is is from 1576. And regarding "dry pikes" (unarmored pikemen) he says that you always put men armored in corselets in front and behind them, half in front half behind. And if theres an odd number, put one more in front than behind. Hes very specific in regards to the numbers, which is derived through square root, f.ex if you have 1200 pikemen and want to arrange a field square,then select the closest number 1152 (48w 52d) and use the 48 leftover pikemen where the sergeant sees fit.

@dianapennepacker6854

2 жыл бұрын

Also polearms are underrated. Movies make it like they break with one sword hit. Or if you get inside the tip you won. Getting stabbed by a quarter staff is jarring.

A video exploring where eastern formations like janissaries, cossacks, haiduks, and streltsy fit in all of this would be very interesting.

@SandRhomanHistory

2 жыл бұрын

Indeed. But we're afraid of making too many mistakes when covering so many different historical periods / units; especially if it's eastern history, which remains more difficult to do because of the language barrier.

@kamilszadkowski8864

2 жыл бұрын

@@SandRhomanHistory I understand. Hopefully, some more sources and books will be translated in the future. I guess I could help you regarding haiduks, cossacks and streltsy but I am sure you'd prefer working with some actual historians and professional translations.

@gabrielvanhauten4169

2 жыл бұрын

@@SandRhomanHistory maybe hire somebody who does it?

@SandRhomanHistory

2 жыл бұрын

@@gabrielvanhauten4169 that's probably too expensive for us but more of a problem is that if we did that, we wouldn't be able to doublecheck whether the person who read the books, did so carefully enough. That's why we're quite hesitant to do that.

@SandRhomanHistory

2 жыл бұрын

@@kamilszadkowski8864 Well, I would say not necessarily. If we trust people then we gladly work with people who are outside academia. But then again, our budget is quite limited, so that's gonna be problem I guess. Maybe we could write it and then find people to doublecheck our text. That might be a good way to do it.

i really appreciate that you mention all your sources in the description. i wish more channels had this professionalism

@SandRhomanHistory

2 жыл бұрын

Hey, thanks man. We're trying to do it all the time. As a side note and in defense of everybody making similar videos: Sometimes it happens that one just forgets to add the sources while producing the video (has happened to us countless times as well). Also, often KZreadrs simply lack the time or determination to go back through the script and add them to the video. Usually you write the script quite a bit before the video is being produced. But, in general, yeah it would be nice if more people would add their sources. I guess many channels think it's to academic to put them in the description or on screen.

@mattstakeontheancients7594

2 жыл бұрын

100 percent agree. Not only does it show a certain level of academic foresight but allow us needs the ability to read up on sources used to make this video happen. Personally starting a ancient history channel myself and think presenting your sources is the way I want to go. Your animations are great as well. Any tips for someone getting into this field.

@SamSchlimpert

2 жыл бұрын

Can you please cite a peer-reviewed source that indicates channels on KZread are considered "professional" if they cite their sources in the description?

@apokos8871

2 жыл бұрын

@@SamSchlimpert just did. i am a source, i said its professional to do so, im a historian, fellow historians from the channel agreed, so its a peer reviewed source. now, to touch on your comment from another angle, the term "professional" isnt academic nomenclature, so it can be subjective. if we count something as "professional" when its done to make money, (as opposed to a hobby from an amateur), then all channels that have a patreon and try to live by their income there are to be considered "professional". the way i implied it, and i believe it was pretty clear in how i meant it, is that professionalism shown here relates to how close the presentation of a video documentary is to an academic paper, like we do for our universities and articles. a historian, like with all scientists, is required to provide proof for their claims, according to the relevant science. someone that doesnt do so, can be forgiven only if they're approaching it as a lay person, a hobbyist.

@mattstakeontheancients7594

2 жыл бұрын

@@SamSchlimpert not saying the channel is cited I was saying the guy cited papers in his video. Doubt he’s professional in anything other than KZread just if people wanted to explore it more that video showed some academic papers examining this in sports. Originally didn’t think my comment even loaded. KZread crashed on my phone and forgot I even commented on this but the video I was referencing does cite a few papers. Not sure their veracity or peer-reviewed just surprised there was even research on the topic this early on. Hope that clears it up.

Just a slight clarification. The Scottish schiltron was more oval shaped than circular, for the simple reason it would be very hard to maintain a perfect circle. What made it so effective at Bannockburn was that Robert the Bruce had trained the soldiers extensively, so they could move in all directions and still maintain formation. This meant that a previously, predominantly defensive formation that would stand its ground, could now advance and manoeuvre. This caught the English completely by surprise and enabled the Scots to drive the enemy back across the boggy ground and the Bannockburn itself, were many were trapped or drowned.

@lethalslaughterband5498

Жыл бұрын

Training is the most important part of battle

@Ihavpickle

9 ай бұрын

Proof

"Dit is klote" 19:15, very dutch response, very proud. Wiser words have never been said.

@SandRhomanHistory

2 жыл бұрын

We're always happy when the Dutch crowd returns for some of our videos :P There's no other language in which everything sounds hilarious and serious at the same time.

@thinkthing1984

2 жыл бұрын

This was brilliant and gave me a good laugh

@freekmulder3662

2 жыл бұрын

@@SandRhomanHistory Our language can only be described by the word: "knullig"

When he said the Swiss formation wasnt invincible I wasn't expecting the vulnerability be: 'they got shot to death'. I feel like that's a weakness of most infantry formations

@SandRhomanHistory

2 жыл бұрын

True, but the Swiss had a tendency to charge and run enemies over (which was their main strength. The historian Clifford J. Rogers calls this “the Swiss steamroller”). Failing to adapt to the gunpowder revolution might have been a better way to put it I guess.

@Sealdeam

2 жыл бұрын

Got to consider the perspective of those times, their track record up to the Italian Wars was close to impeccable and it had been that way for the better part of two centuries, then in a couple of decades, from Cerignola onwards, the myth was shattered. If those changes seem quick and abrupt even for us, that have the advantage of hindsight, for the people back then were probably completely unexpected.

@samiamrg7

2 жыл бұрын

The Swiss formations in also tended to be pretty light on guns, leaving them unable to respond in kind to heavy gunfire. They either had to find a way to flank the enemy or to just charge right into them.

@Heroesflorian

Жыл бұрын

@@Sealdeam I wouldn't say completely unexpected as 20y is still a long time in the life of any single person then or now, but I agree the decline was quick compared to the period of high effectiveness... and even when you notice that something is going wrong recently, coming up with a new system for battle isn't a quick or easy task.

@Sealdeam

Жыл бұрын

@@Heroesflorian I agree that any (human) process that can be measured in decades cannot be called sudden nor unexpected, I think is more correct to say that the changes brought about by the conflicts around that time, 1400s and early 1500s (the Hussite Wars, the final stage of the Hundred Years War, the Conquest of Constantinople, etc,) were so profund and broke away with so many practices that have been established for hundreds of years that once that wave caught up to them the Swiss went from one of the foremost military powers of the age to a place of fringe importance very quickly. Although is very important to mention that this was aided greatly by the internal divisions that the Reformation created internally for them, centuries of them presenting an united front against all comers were no more, so them dropping from the map does not mean they were made complete obsolete since they started pointing their pikes at each other also.

This video is a summary jewel in terms of the evolution of the formation of pikes, although for my part I would have liked to see some example of real application of the Spanish Tercios, such as the Battle of Fleurus in 1622 (traditional use) or in the Battle of Jemmingen 1568 (flexible use with companies at their highest tactical level). Also regarding several comments that I have read that affirm about the tactical invincibility of the new formations with respect to the previous ones, I have to say that in practice it was not 100% true and it can be seen in Battles like Cerisoles of 1544 (where Swiss pikemen fighting for France defeated the Tercios in Italy) and at Nördlingen in 1634 (where the supposedly invincible Swedish Brigades were decisively defeated by the supposedly decadent Spanish Tercios of the Thirty Years' War), which shows that these formations well applied, could beat their respective updates; I do not say the same about the Dutch Battalions, since their unwillingness to fight in the open field leaves us short of examples of their total effectiveness against the Tercios.

The Byzantine thematic armies made considerable use of formations somewhere between a class Greek phalanx and that of Macedon. It's an interesting segue between the discipline of professional armies of antiquity and the feudal armies of later centuries

@eliezertzaruri4389

2 жыл бұрын

Also I'm really enjoying the artwork!

@heavybolter6396

2 жыл бұрын

Yeah they had quite complex form o infantry formations. I've seen some stuff where they had the majority of the infantry use spear and shield and the front rows use a long two handed spear when facing cavalry. It's hard to grasp sometimes (Meanvilon)

@malcolmnelson361

2 жыл бұрын

This is a pretty interesting fact--thanks for sharing it. Are there any reasonably accessible sources on the subject? I have pretty good overall background knowledge.

Cool choice of topics lately.

@gabrielvanhauten4169

2 жыл бұрын

he always covers pike content ^^

Los Tercios españoles. Honor, disciplina ,fidelidad a su rey. Revolucionaron el arte de l guerra.

Or as they all ought to be called, block and stick warfare.

@clintmoor422

2 жыл бұрын

stick bois at war is the correct way to put it

@anadaere6861

2 жыл бұрын

Stick and stone war Nowadays we have sticks that throws stones really fast

Square defensive formations are some of the sexier things of history, just like a good heavy cavalry charge

Castillon was the first battle won with gunpowder in Europe, 50 years before Cerignola!

As a Greek it makes me think how big balls the Romans must have had in order to charge the Pike Phalanx.

Well, the tercio's numbers were in theory. They never reached those numbers. There's a man working in Spain's archives,. I think specifically Simancas, and he did discover new interesting details about the Tercios. Do you want me to give you his Twitter account for a collaboration?

@SandRhomanHistory

2 жыл бұрын

I think this was published by Geoffrey Parker. Well, the strength we give is the ideal strength not the actual strenght. As far as I remember Parker did research in the quite a few Spanish archives and he said that their strenght decreased over time. But I'm not sure whether he was the guy who published it. By the time of the Thirty Years War, the Tercios were only around 1500 men but than again the Dutch Battalion started out as 800-900 men and decreased in number as well (about 500 man by the 1630ies, if memory serves). Also, I think we don't have good sources for the 1530 and 1540s, where it is most likely that the Tercios would have been as big as ~2500 men. So, you're right in pointing out the numbers are theoretical but the comparison to the Dutch and Swedish formations still holds, I think.

Awesome video! I like how you looked on evolution of millitary combat through the ages, how new formations destroyed the old ones!

@SandRhomanHistory

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks! If you allow me a little nit-picking: I would say it's a better to put it this way: how one formation improved upon the previous formation's strength or adapted the previous formation's tactics to new demands of the battlefield :P

Best history channel!! Thank you for your work, keep it up!

@SandRhomanHistory

2 жыл бұрын

Thanks :)

The quality of the video and the historical accuracy is astounding! Great work!

13:22 Emperor Maximillian's face added to the mix is a humorous touch.

I just found your channel. It is a great delight to know that this quality of storytelling, art, edition, voice, and overall effort is out there for us (the community) to enjoy. Thank you

Also cheers for getting in the mix in comments! Lots of channels seem to phase out such audience engagement once they've got stuff cresting a million views, which is understandable for a variety of reasons, but sucks all the same. Having a realistic chance to ask questions helps get a bit of that symposium energy in a youtube video :D

Interestingly enough, the legion practically came back in the modern world in the form of the brigade combat team.

@SandRhomanHistory

2 жыл бұрын

Well, my prof once said that most Roman things are timeless. He's probably right as they really do tend to come back (sometimes in the most unexpcted of ways, though).

@brokenbridge6316

2 жыл бұрын

Good point Napoleon I Bonaparte

@walangchahangyelingden8252

2 жыл бұрын

But unexpectedly, yet.

@nilloc93

2 жыл бұрын

picking hairs a bit but the BCT was more inspired by the German kampfgruppe or American late ww2 "combat commands". But in general yes, the Roman way is still the basis for so much in modern armies.

@NonsenseFabricator

Жыл бұрын

Other than being in the same approximate ballpark of total personnel, a BCT is nothing like a roman legion.

This video explains warfare from these times very nicely. Great job.

The evolution was awesome to see in this video, great job!

Wow, connecting thousands of years of history through a common thread is really interesting

Informative AND entertaining! As a student of history, I appreciate these breakdowns.

Such a great channel, man. Thank you for all the amazing content you produce.

@SandRhomanHistory

2 жыл бұрын

Hey, thanks for the comment! It's always nice if we can deliver content that people seem to enjoy.

Well done. The composition of the vid was exactly what I hoped for when I saw the title.

Really loved this particular video essay. Please do more of these types of overviews!

Something that intrigues me about the pike and shot era is that formations often contained various troop types. This meant reforming during engagements, e.g. arquebusiers moving into a pike square as cavalry neared. Hundreds of men reforming must've been messy at the best of times, imagine them pushing and shoving each other, then trying to produce a solid line of pikes while under fire or under threat of a cavalry charge.

Amazing content. Loved the part about the Ancient greeks as I just love that Era and I'm Dutch myself.

One of the best channels on yt. Thanks for making these videos

7:03 love the grim looking scots. Wouldn‘t mess with them

Man I always ended up making early pike and shot (crossbowmen instead of muskets usually) formations in Age of Empires when I was 10 and thought I was a military genius, now I realize I was sorta on the right track

Brilliant video, it’s great to see a history which shows the development of tactics.

Really insightful video, appriciate the research and time it took to put this up, cant wait for more!!

I Just discovered your channel and it became quickly my most favoured Source for Military History (and Contexts), especially for the time period of 15th C. - 18th C. (there's not much out there)! Very Good Work, thank you!

very well made video with cool information! always wanted to learn about different battle formations throughout history

I really loved this video! One suggestion for an upcoming video: a Video about the lineformation in the 18th century and the transition to the column formation of Napoleon. This would be really interesting! Thanks for your content :)

It always amazes me how we know so much about what happened in specific battles that happened 2 millennia ago. Imagine being one of the generals of those battles and watching on proudly because their tactics are still remembered and studied to this day.

great work man, keep it up

This Channel is a blessing

This channel is outstanding. One of the best. I love it!

Awesome video! But even better was that transition for more VPN lol that was the smoothest one I've ever seen.

Some additional notes on the German terminology: 11:00 Gewalthaufen as "crowd of force" is the nice translation. The crude modern understanding would be more like "pile of violence". 14:30 "Sold" is the German word for a soldier's wage. The word for "Söldner" for mercenary is directly derived from that and can be understood as someone who receives a soldier's pay. A "Doppelsöldner" therefore can be understood as someone who receives double the pay of an ordinary soldier.

Wow, what a great video again. Congrats.

Surprised you didn't mention sumerian/akkadian spear-bearers. the art looks rather phalanx like to me.

i suspect that even if one single guy managed to get past the points of the pikes he would cause mayhem as the pikemen would suddenly have to react to a swordsman in their midst , essentialy having to drop their own pike to defend themselves

Excellent video!!! 11/10. Nuff said.

There were good reasons for not mentioning it in a video that had to cover such a long period of history so this isn't a criticism, but there was an important transition between the classical Greek phalanx of the 5th century and the Macedonian pike-armed phalanx. In the early 4th century, an Athenian general named Iphicrates experimented with lengthening the spears of Athenian hoplites while also lightening their equipment. Although the sources of this period are a bit patchy, it seems that there were other examples of experimentation in the first half of the 4th century which were taken up and refined by Philip II. If you're interested in the details respond to this post and I'll give you some references. Or if you look up Iphicrates and dig around in the internet for a bit, you will probably find some information.

A golden military history channel, perfect

Absolutlly awesome video ! Really great work. Keep going like this. Channels like yours and PIKE and SHOT Channel deserve more subs and views. Have a Nice day

Great work as always.

Excellent as usual. Thank you.

Cool video man, thanks!

Your efforts to pronounce all the various language words and names correctly is very much appreciated. I actually laughed a bit when you pronounced "tercio" with the slight lisp. Very good work!

@SandRhomanHistory

2 жыл бұрын

Glad you enjoyed it!

There is ancient Pictish art in Scotland that looks like it may depict Schiltrons. If so, then the Scots were potentially using the schiltron as far back as the 7th or 8th century AD.

Really killer illustrations.

Great video keep it up man

I love pike & shot but there isn't much of it on youtube. Thanks for filling that niche sandrhoman

that was the smoothest ad transition I have ever seen

Fantastic video!

Thanks again for a great video

Great work. You got my subscription

Masterful - in particular i never knew that the swiss pike formations had other types within there bodies

Amazing video! great job!! Thank you

Outstanding summary!!

Smoothest end of a video ever.

Very informative and interesting! I like that you are so thorough with sources and accuracy. Especially at 5:57 I like how you just admit that we don't know what happened on the flanks of the battle. I'm pretty sure I've seen one or two of those animated battle-videos where the creator has just made something up to fill in the blanks, in order to present a "cohesive narrative" or whatever. But at 9:54 I'm not sure what. you mean? I thought it was known that Brian Cox taught Mel Gibson about classical greek and roman history, so he would have known about the phalanx before the battle of Stirling?

Glorious!

I love that the last knight fights with his Landsknechts ^^

i love your videos dude!

Very nice video, thank you!

Great video. But the fact that you talked about Landsknechte and even the Forlorn Hope without touching on their use of Zweihänder/Schlachtschwert left me really, really blueballed.

Good stuff !!!

11:16 kings and generals talked about the Swiss pike square and it’s history, but never did a good job at visualizing. Thank you for that.

This is the best medieval history channel on youtube. The pictures really help bring to life what these military armies actually were like.. Organized and sophisticated for their time. They did not just run at each other like in movies.

I was thinking of this for the last year

in my opinion nord vpn reigns supreme when it comes to the best rectangular formation

An idea from this video, please can you do a video on how horse and pike 'competed' for primacy of the battlefield?

I was thinking about this the other day. Dang ol' spears are the quintissental human wepon.

already exciting title

Great video, but do you think you could please do a follow-up centered on the tactics of Colonial America from around 1600? Over the past few months, JYF Museums has released a series of videos on the weapons and tactics of pre-Revolution America, including a variant of the pike and shot formation that relied on mail armor, shields, swords, and pistols; I'd love to see if you could expand on that.

great information

I recently found medieval total war 2 in the app store. It’s just like old times, but now i can play it anywhere on my ipad pro

Very interesting thank you.

you should have talked about the Byzantine Phalanx too. Because Leo the VI's "Tactics" greatly influenced the formations of the 16th century.

@SandRhomanHistory

2 жыл бұрын

Intersting! To be honest, early Byzantine history (especially pre 1400) is not really not a field of expertise for us at all (that's why we carefully said "a few hand picked examples" in the intro). Didn't want to make to wrong impression that we will cover everything there ever existed in terms of pikes / pike formations. Do you have any link or suggestion what to read about Leo's pike tactics? Would be neat to know, maybe for another video.

@mariushunger8755

2 жыл бұрын

Byzantine pikes. Never heard of it, sound intriguing 🤔

@geovani1412

2 жыл бұрын

​@@SandRhomanHistory You can find the English version on Amazon if you want to buy it. but if you don't want to buy it, it's going to be a little more complicated, I have a copy on my pc but I don't remember where I downloaded it from.

@geovani1412

2 жыл бұрын

@@mariushunger8755 Pikes and lances (kontaria) in the tenth century were approximately 4 meters long with an iron point (xipharion, aichme). One type of infantry spear, the menaulion, is described in detail; it was as thick as can fit in a man's palm, taken whole from young oak, cornel saplings, "or the so-called artzekidion" saplings. It was 1.9 to 3.1 meters in length with a 23-39cm head, for use by medium infantrymen (called menaulatoi after their weapon) against enemy kataphraktoi - an excellent example of a weapon and a type of specialized soldier developed for a specific tactical role.

@geovani1412

2 жыл бұрын

@@SandRhomanHistory The wiki has a summary of the manual if you're interested: www.wikiwand.com/en/Tactica_of_Emperor_Leo_VI_the_Wise

Cracking video, well presented. One small correction - the majority of the English force had already cross the Bannockburn the evening before the second day of the battle - they camped in the damp, boggy carse which helped ruin their morale. They weren't crossing the Bannockburn to join the fight during the day - only when they tried to escape

Excellent and informative video, as always. Hopefully I can make pike and shot tactics work in Warhammer.

@SandRhomanHistory

2 жыл бұрын

try the dogs of war mod. might not be out for wh III though!

@nicholaswalsh4462

2 жыл бұрын

@@SandRhomanHistory I was more speaking of the tabletop but thanks for the mod suggestion. I'll check it out.

absolutely loving the roman swords accurate to the period, it's exausting to see only the gladium!

Pikes saw use as late as the 19th Century, interestingly enough. Usually used by reserve troops and to help defend fortifications when the enemy closed in to melee range.

Looooong pointed sticks!!!!

@SandRhomanHistory

2 жыл бұрын

This is the way.

@laisphinto6372

2 жыл бұрын

did you watch Professor shads video about the power of the mighty stick?

amazing explication

Imagine being on a battle field fighting hand to hand with thousands around you smh, must have been hectic

@Tray-sq2zr

Жыл бұрын

Seems fun

Excellent Job!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I forget the book in which I read it though if anyone has heard a similar story please let me know. The account was from the English Civil War and from what I remember the pikemen commanders from opposite sides corresponded before the battle that they would put on a show as they were the ones doing the dying, as in the aftermath of a route it was the footman that were most vulnerable and they didn't have horses like the cavalry nobles and wanted both sides of pikemen to have the strength to retreat in good order.

Good quality content

Excellent episode as always! In the Swiss section, the "forlorn hope" group described as "death squad", I think you meant "suicide squad" instead of "death" squad because they're made of criminals & undesirables with very dangerous missions. A Death Squad is a Search and Destroy or Assassination group.

Interstingly I always assumed, that the musketeers at the sides of the Tecio also were kontermarching since they are way to deep for their width to make sense otherwise.

@SandRhomanHistory

2 жыл бұрын

They most likely did! That's way we phrased it something like "the Dutch adapted and refined the counter march" (probably not the exact words we used!). It is assumed that the two so-called "garrisons" (to the side of the Tercio) used the counter march, but they were probably much much deeper than the 10 men of the Dutch Battalion. Keep in mind that we don't really know how exactly the Tercios fought. There's is much dispute about this and no evidence exists that is not in some way problematic. We especially don't know how the four smaller shot contingents (so called sleeves) operated. It's often assumed that they were deployed indepentently (for example to flank of enemies or do other tasks on the battlefield (small war for example) or that they stood in front of the pikes and retreated into the formation when it came to a melee engagement. They probably used the counter march as well. Also, a last note of caution: these things above are usually discussed most prominently in regards to the thirty years war which is already 100 years after the Tercios founding.