"I failed a student for saying there are only two genders." "What are you, a woke fanatic?" "No, a German teacher."

@HxTurtle

9 ай бұрын

alas, there's virtually no difference between English and German with regards to number. it's just that objects are gendered entirely arbitrarily; but that's about it.

@Merrsharr

9 ай бұрын

@@HxTurtle In German there are 3 grammatical genders.

@idris_haris_al-kalima

9 ай бұрын

:)

@HxTurtle

9 ай бұрын

@@PyroMancer2k lol

@HxTurtle

9 ай бұрын

@@Merrsharr I think that's about what I said-did I? (German is my first language; so, it's not exactly made up theories outta boredom.)

I lived for 14 years in Turkey, where the language has no gendered pronouns or grammatical gender at all. You can have a long conversation with someone without giving any clue about the gender of the person your discussing, and it won't count contrived at all. You can make a person's gender clear if you want or need to, but the language doesn't force your hand. Coming back to the US was kind of like walking into a minefield...

@k.umquat8604

Жыл бұрын

This sort of stuff was extremely confusing to me when I first learned about it as a Turkish person

@sazji

Жыл бұрын

@@k.umquat8604 I'm sure! Heck, Turkish people have trouble remembering "he" and "she" at first. :-)

@k.umquat8604

Жыл бұрын

@@sazji As I used to in primary school

@sazji

Жыл бұрын

@@k.umquat8604 Sadece ilkokulda olduysa tebrik ediyorum. :-)

@k.umquat8604

Жыл бұрын

@@sazji İngilizcem 5.-6. sınıflarda çok gelişti. Ondan beri böyle hataları neredeyse hiç yapmıyorum.

"what are your pronouns?" "Use whatever you think will confuse the person you're talking to the least. The less time you spend discussing my pronouns, the more time you can spend calling me fat."

So I'm Vietnamese American, and I'm so happy to have come across a video that so well articulates my experience and struggle with the whole debate around gender. I too am on the side of compassion and empathy (especially given that so many of my friends are trans or nonbinary), but I also have friends and family who really struggle with alternate pronouns. In my experience, Vietnamese culture is very collectivistic, while I think American culture tends more individualistic, which is something I've explained to friends before when talking about my upbringing, but I never thought about how that carries over into linguistics and pronouns specifically. Vietnamese pronouns, like in many other Asian cultures, specify the speaker's relationship to the subject, so it gets a bit more complicated than just he/she/they... Anyhow, this has got me thinking hahaha

@rexsceleratorum1632

7 ай бұрын

How are "so many" of your friends trans or nonbinary, is it because you work at a trans club or something, or is this an example of the alleged social contagion some people are talking about? Also assuming that many of these people are not going to have heterosexual marriages, is the US going to face a population crunch soon?

@ktiger32698k

7 ай бұрын

@@rexsceleratorum1632 I just happen to run in a lot of very queer spaces hahaha. Online spaces especially (at least the ones I'm active in) tend to have a lot of folks who identify as lgbtq+. My area of study isn't population statistics or anthropology, so I'm not entirely confident on speculating on the USA's population growth, but I do believe it's slowing down, at least compared to the last century or so. I wouldn't ascribe that to the normalization of lgbtq+ necessarily though, but to a whole list of things.

@get_that_money664

7 ай бұрын

​@rexsceleratorum1632 since the mid-late 20th century the population grew bombastically, plus there is still a small amount of lgbt people in the real world. Population crunches can happen by very specific chains of biological or biologically-involved disasters (droughts, floods, famine, etc.)

@rexsceleratorum1632

7 ай бұрын

@@ktiger32698k Ah. Online "friends".

@yokhojota6792

7 ай бұрын

"a bit more complicated" A BIT MORE ?! Are you kidding ? It's hell... :)

My step dad has asked me before if Spanish speakers think of objects as inherently masculine and feminine, and I've used a few different examples to explain it. My favorite is that "a beard" is feminine and "a dress" is masculine. A really good example that shows it's a purely grammatical category and has nothing to do with the objects themselves is that the same object might be feminine if you call it "a chair" but masculine if you call it "a seat." It's about the words, not the things themselves.

@charlytaylor1748

9 ай бұрын

people studying the Sapir Whorf theory concluded that if the 'gender' of an object influences the way French/German speakers think of them it does so very minimally.

@mrkiky

9 ай бұрын

Yea but it's clear that they're masculine or feminine because people and animals actually ARE male or female. When you assign male or female gender to inanimate objects, it's arbitrary and stupid, but when assigning them to members of a sexually reproducing dimorphic species, through pronouns, it is a direct reference to their biological sex. Gendered pronouns don't refer to identities and never did, they refer to sex.

@prenomnom364

9 ай бұрын

So I guess if you're a biological male your pronouns would be "he", and if you're a biological female your pronouns would be "she" regardless of how stereotypically feminine or masculine you seem to be ?

@coledelong427

9 ай бұрын

My favorite is coño 😌

@YoureRightIThink

9 ай бұрын

​@@prenomnom364sí

Calvin and Hobbes definition of pronoun: A noun that has lost its amateur status

@JediMobius

10 ай бұрын

Classic.

@uutdiegodzilla3821

10 ай бұрын

I miss them so much! ❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️

@davegmusicchannel

10 ай бұрын

hahahahahahahahahaha

@PrivateSi

10 ай бұрын

But although an English pun in a silly cartoon, I think you'll find in reality Calvin and Hobbes both understood Latin so knew what the 'pro' prefix meant, as they grew up in Europe a few hundred years ago with Latin as the common intellectual language, not English. It's funny how stupid people like funny things that make them seem even more stupid when they parrot them!

@EamonWill

10 ай бұрын

​@@PrivateSi It's funny how stupid people write long winded, rambling comments that make no sense and think they sound smart.

"requiring people to share their pronouns means that you either force people to out themselves or choose to be in the closet" YES. Honestly I struggle to wrap my head around why so many people think that there is anything remotely appropriate about wanting to "normalize the practice of everyone sharing their pronouns." The youtube search that led me to this video was sparked after I had an uncomfortable experience where I was suddenly asked for my pronouns by a new customer at work. It was literally the first thing they asked me upon our meeting. For context, I'm a cis woman with very short hair and my work clothes are androgynous simply for functional reasons. I'd never been asked that question before in my life. Moreover, I'd also never really thought much about my gender in terms of me being at my job. I stuttered and just told them to use whatever they felt comfortable with and moved onto the actual content of the business interaction, but in my head I was just thinking "why on earth is my gender identity relevant to you in this situation???" As you said, it felt similar to "where are you really from" questions regarding ethnicity and race. Like you, I'm not going to tell a stranger "my pronouns are she/her" because that would be implying that I give a crap whether people view me as a woman in every context, which I don't. Anyway my point here is this: to add to your point of not forcing people to out/closet themselves, I think another big problem with the normalization of "asking for other people's pronouns" is that it actually undermines the whole goal of gender equality, which is that gender honestly SHOULDN'T be relevant in most contexts. Other than my husband (for hopefully obvious reasons) and maybe some of the people closest to me in my life, I couldn't care less if other people recognize my gender identity, as long as they aren't being mean or judgmental on the grounds of gender. My gender is the most boring and innocuous aspect of my personhood and I'm not going to contribute to this weird assumption that a lot of left-wing echo chamber inhabits have that "being cis means having a deep connection to the gender you were assigned at birth." Sorry, but it's just not true and I'm not going to pretend that my womanhood is deeply important to me in all social/professional contexts if that isn't the case.

@KazarooniBallooni

3 ай бұрын

Hi, I totally agree with your critique of asking about pronouns, and your statement that your gender as a cis person not being important or relevant in most contexts is highlights something incredibly valuable. I think one aspect that is often overlooked is the level at which personal pronouns and personal gender affects one another. For you, you made it clear that they are innately interlinked, the fact that you identify as a cis woman informs the internal answer to "what are your pronouns?". However, to many people, their gender and their pronouns are not inherently linked, take for example someone that might use they/them but strongly identify as a feminine woman. If they are asked what their pronouns are, it may not activate an internal analysis of their gender, it could be akin to asking what their name is. I think this plurality of the link between gender and terminology is what makes people react quite differently to a deceptively simple question. To a certain extent, we have all faced prejudice/bias based on perceived gender, and I think that is the cause of why this is a difficult subject. I'm interested in your thoughts on all of this, and whether you believe there is a respectful way to approach pronouns for everyone, trans or otherwise. Would it be enough if someone asked you "if you are comfortable, what are your pronouns?", or would that still feel invasive or unnecessary?

@DSS712

3 ай бұрын

@@KazarooniBallooni thanks for sharing your thoughts. I think it would still be invasive and unnecessary because it still carries an implication of questioning someone's gender without a reasonable intent. I actually think it's potentially more harmful in the context of asking a trans person, because maybe they are putting in a lot of effort to pass and could view the experience of being asked this question as a sign that their efforts to pass are not successful. It's much better to just wait for more context clues or wait until the conversation has reached a casual enough level that it would feel more natural. As far as asking a stranger immediately upon meeting them, I can't see a scenario where it would be appropriate. And just to reply to something else in your comment, you gave the example of a person who uses they/them pronouns but identifies as a feminine woman. If I'm being frank, an example like this kind of demonstrates why i dont even really agree with the idea that we each even "have" our own third person pronouns in the first place. I don't see myself as "having" pronouns - when i present as I typically do as female, people refer to me as she, and when I'm in my androgenous work clothes, I wouldnt be surprised or offended if some people referred to me as "he" since it can be understandably hard to tell unless we are up close and chatting. In the English language, people generally passively pick which third person pronouns to use in their speech based on how they percieve a given person's gender presentation. By that logic, it fundamentally doesn't make sense for the person in your example to "not use" female pronouns if they are someone who in fact chooses present as what the average person would describe with female pronouns. I think in the example you gave, this person interprets this entire aspect of English grammar in an unconventional way, and it isn't fair to expect the average people they encounter in the world around them to align with that perspective of gender. The fact of the matter is that third person pronouns do not share the same grammatical function as a name or nickname, and if someone sees it that way then they must understand that their views are unconventional and so most people dont link any personal meaning whatsoever to the third person pronouns that pop out of their mouth when they are describing someone. It is totally valid however if this person chooses to primarily spend time with other people who share their interpretations of how third person pronouns function.

@rainkidwell2467

20 күн бұрын

​@@DSS712yeah most cis people don't think about the third person pronouns because people seldom get them wrong, and when they do, the person doesn't double down and INSIST that you ARE a man. Most cis people will never have that experience, and while it might seem easy to ignore that type of incident, it gets harder to be okay after the thirtieth time it happens? When we say you're cis because you have a deep connection with your assigned gender, it's specifically because that connection runs so deep that you don't HAVE to think about it, it's just how things are.

@ArynWellspring

15 күн бұрын

Yeah, trans women here, and I hate whenever people on social media bully people into putting their pronouns in their bio. Not everyone, even in the queer community is comfortable with that and may themselves be closeted and not ready to say one way or another. It was a stupid trend that was going on and I am glad it has been happening less.

@PeanutStrawberry

8 күн бұрын

@@ArynWellspring honestly, it's such a cluster truck of nonsense (not pronouns themselves, the whole fight/discourse around them and genders & gender identities in general). It's like DSS said above: if someone is talking to me... why would they even use he/she/they in the first place? I'm pretty sure we only use I and You when we're two people speaking. So... asking for pronouns is like asking "what do I call you when I speak about you (to others)." It also cognates in my mind, like DSS said, with the " where are you from *really?* " type question. But even then, it's kind of a "meh" issue (to me). But what really grind my gears, so to speak, are two main things: sex erasure, and the neo/xeno-pronouns craze. The whole "gender" and derived terms are kinda simple to grasp (at least I personally think they are) when you read their definitions: Gender: "includes social, psychological, cultural and behavioral aspects of femininity, masculinity or other gender identity." So far, nothing complicated to me, but (and I know I'm the weirdo here and "normal people" don't read it like this, but) when I read "gender" I'm just automatically brought to its etymology in my head; gender is from "genus", meaning "kind, sort (of)." So "What gender are you?" is basically "What kind/sort (of human) are you?" and the above definition makes it easy to understand it's a sex based (male, female, and nonbinary/neutral) division. Gender identity: "the personal sense of your gender which can correlate with your observed sex or can differ from it." Just that bit does not *not* make sense either... it's simple. It's basically "the personal sense of your social, psychological, cultural and behavioral aspects of femininity, masculinity or other gender identity which can correlate with your observed sex or can differ from it." It is what I understand. And again, the definition reinforces that genders and gender identities are sex based divisions. Gender expression: "the external manifestation of your gender identity through behavior, mannerisms, and appearance that are socially associated with femininity, masculinity or other gender identity." So I understand this as "the external manifestation of your personal sense of your social, psychological, cultural and behavioral aspects of femininity, masculinity or other gender identity which can correlate with your observed sex or can differ from it through behavior, mannerisms, and appearance that are socially associated with femininity, masculinity or other gender identity." It still makes sense (to me), even though replacing "gender" and "gender identity" with their own definitions inside the definition of "gender expression" makes it very clunky to read as is, and somewhat repetitive. But it's still comprehensible (to me), but it again reinforces genders, identities, and expressions as sex based divisions. And here comes my first problem in this whole discourse... sex erasure. I've read, listened to, and watched a lot of the same people who've relentlessly hammered in that "sex and gender are different" things now conflating the two terms, and often having gender just replace entirely sex in discussions and definitions. And that's the whole issue I got: how can sex and gender be two different concepts but be interchangeable? And if you try to erase/replace the concept of "sex" with "gender," what does gender mean? "Sex" is part of gender's definition itself. But if the gender (kind/sort) of Humans is not a sex based division, then it needs another term of reference, or else gender loses all meaning. Like... I don't remember which nation/people, but there's a people whose genders are "Life" based. So "humans, leaves on a tree, feathers, an animal, etc." are not "masculine/feminine" but "alive," and "rocks, trees, house, etc." are "non-alive" or something like that. If we don't want "genders" to be sex based divisions, well, we need to find another concept to base the division... or else "gender" just means nothing! If we want it sex based, life/non-life based, age based, etc. let's go for it! But it still needs a common concept, denominator for the definitions to make sense. Let's take age for example. If genders were age based divisions, then the definition for gender expression would become something like: "the external manifestation of your personal sense of your social, psychological, cultural and behavioral aspects of *youngness, adulthood, seniority or other gender identity* which can correlate with your observed *age* or can differ from it through behavior, mannerisms, and appearance that are socially associated with youngness, adulthood, seniority or other gender identity." See what I mean? And this brings in my second problem with the discourse... the goddamn neo/xenogenders/pronouns. Xir/xer? Fae/faer? Cat/catself? Tree/treeself? God/godself? What the fuuuuuuuuu-- It's completely chaotic! There's no logic, no sense! How can someone's gender/pronoun be "cat" or "fairy" or "god" ??? What's their common denominator? Where is the division? What's the linking coincept between those nonsensical "pronouns?" A defined and shared theme must be the base of gender divisions: for male/female/enby, it's sex; for youngness/adulthood/seniority, it's age/time; and for alive/non-alive, it's life. What is the shared concept linking cat, fairy, xir, and god!? How can your Human gender (kind/sort) be "cat" ? A Human man? Makes sense. A Human senior? Makes sense. A Human alive? Still makes sense! A Human cat? WTF!? Cats are animals... Humans are animals! How can one's gender (kind/sort) be another animal when we are already an animal? It's just wild and nonsensical! Honestly, those "neo/xenogenders/pronouns" really sound like attention-seeking tools, or rather... attempts at some sort of hyper individualization & dehumanization. Forget having to identify as male, female or intersex or nonbinary, it's... it's almost like they just don't want to identify as humans at all! I mean... what the hell are the "social, psychological, cultural and behavioral aspects of a fae? Or a cat? Or a plant? Or god?" That's where I am completely flabbergasted and cannot wrap my mind around the heck those "neo/xenogenders/pronouns" are supposed to convey. Some folks conflate sexes and genders by accident because the definitions are linked by one's birth sex, and it's understandable... but some really, really want and dream of abolishing the concept of "sex" altogether and replace it with gender, but they don't replace "sex" in the definition of gender for another thematic concept; they don't attempt to give a coherent definition at times. And I can't shake off the feeling it's all because the majority of people have drastically bad literary and reading comprehensions. I have the impression lots of people into "xenogenders" are trying to convey... personality traits? Characteristics? Like... if someone says their gender is "cat/catself," it feels like they try to convey "I am feline" and not literally (at least I hope not literally) "I am a cat." I fail to see how any of these can even make sense as "genders," and it really, really gives out vibes of trying to be "personality/character traits" if my vision/explication of it makes sense. I'd very much like your impressions on the topic if you have any, and if you feel like sharing :P Sorry for the novel, but it's just impossible to talk about this stuff in just 4000 characters lol I've echoed a lot of my best friend's fiancée (transwoman too) here, and she's even more critical of everything around transgenderism, pronouns, genders, etc. than any of our group friend. Thanks for taking your time to read/listen 🙇‍♂

In Finnish we don't have gendered third person singular pronouns, just one formal (hän) and one informal (se) neutral pronoun for everyone. The informal one translates to "it" so yeah, we go around calling each other "it" and nobody bats an eye. In Finnish we usually automatically assume that whoever is mentioned first is also being mentioned first in the following sentence. So if I say "Mark didn't like what Pete said, so he hit him" I would automatically assume that Mark is the one doing the hitting. In cases where they are not mentioned in the same order, we would specify it by using the name again in the next sentence, like for example "Pete said something Mark didn't like, so Mark hit him". As for the "Alice in the mirror" part, we would likely say "Alice saw [one's self] in the mirror and liked [what one saw]". The fact that romance languages insist on gendering such simple, everyday statements feels so weird from a Finnish viewpoint!

@smalltalk3284

4 ай бұрын

Opinions. Everyone got one

@franciswall

4 ай бұрын

​@@smalltalk3284 My comment had 0 opinions, it was all factual statements from a Finnish point of view.

@smalltalk3284

4 ай бұрын

ok@@franciswall

@ems4884

Ай бұрын

Finnish grammar is a beautiful thing. Most speakers of other European languages (excluding Estonian and Hungarian and presumably the Sapmi languages) see Finnish and only think it looks impossibly difficult. They are wrong. It's music.

@matheuscastello6554

Ай бұрын

from a romance language speaker, i also find it weird that romance languages insist on gendering simple statements

Most people I know who use gender neutral pronouns actually don’t share them a lot far as I know. They by large just state it in their social media bio and if the person in Dunkin Donuts or some old professor misgendered them they just won’t say anything. I imagine because it would be exhausting in everyday life and run the risk of encountering some mean people. And I’m in college art school (it won’t get any woker than that).

@Aster_Risk

Жыл бұрын

It's also dangerous to push back. You don't know which people are safe and which are violent bigots.

@lynxaway

Жыл бұрын

Oh hey, that’s me. Yeah, I don’t share unless there’s already a channel set up for me to do that (socmed bios, etc) OR I’m 110% sure it’ll go over well. Most situations… don’t fall into that.

@christopherjohnson9167

Жыл бұрын

same, in the art industry. I have a bunch of friends who are gender neutral. But almost all of their friends don't use their preferred pronoun of they/them. She/her just comes naturally, our brains are wired to categorize people as men and women, and I don't think you can just socially engineer society to change that aspect.

@Lawfair

Жыл бұрын

It would also be exhausting for the "old professor" or the clerk at Dunkin Donuts... the professor has hundreds of different students each term, it's hard enough to remember all of their names and faces... meanwhile the clerk deals with thousands of people a week, in order to not offend them, they would need to start every interaction with "hello, welcome to ... my I have your pronouns and order please?"

@michaelgoetze2103

Жыл бұрын

If you are buying something from Dunkin Donuts a pronoun is irrelevant anyway because you don't use someone's pronoun in direct conversation with them.

I got so accustomed to using gender neutral pronouns when I was younger because I didn’t want my brother to make fun when I was talking with girls. It just comes naturally now.

@seanbirch

9 ай бұрын

And he didn't make fun of you for always using gender neutral pronouns?

@bruhdabones

9 ай бұрын

@@seanbirch oddly, no. This was back in middle school so I’m sure it just didn’t click for him.

@thedudeamongmengs2051

9 ай бұрын

​@@seanbirchthe idea that gender neutral pronouns are bad or weird is really really new. Using gender neutral pronouns has only become something people make fun of because gender issues became political issues. I don't think there was a single person who would argue with the use of singular they in english prior to the year 2000

@Ice_Karma

9 ай бұрын

@@thedudeamongmengs2051 Actually, people have been arguing about it almost as long as it's been a thing, which is 700-odd years... *facepalm*

@mimimosa259

9 ай бұрын

I used to use gender neutral pronouns as a kid when I didn’t know the gender of the person I was talking about it

I was fully prepared to bristle at the "both sides are wrong, here's how normal people think about it" framing, but I was happily surprised by how broad, well-studied and informative this was. Thanks!

@crinolynneendymion8755

7 ай бұрын

"I was fully prepared..." A succinct example of the problem.

@justseffstuff3308

7 ай бұрын

@@crinolynneendymion8755Tbf, the title is very inflammatory. It also uses the right's terms for both sides, rather than using each side's terms for each other, or using each side's terms for themselves.

@DominoPivot

7 ай бұрын

@@justseffstuff3308 Yeah. For those who don't know, in English-speaking queer online spaces the term "gender critic" is generally understood as a euphemism transphobes use to make themselves look legitimate, and "woke" as a derogatory term for "the people we don't like". So many of us will see this video title and assume it's a video made by a right-wing transphobe apologist trying to pass as a centrist. A more neutral title would just say the left and right without any connotative qualifiers. But I'm willing to bet that as a cis het white man, the maker of this video is simply not at all part of the social circles where these words carry such a connotation. Plus, these words are great for engagement; I clicked the video, didn't I? 😅 So maybe it's fine to keep it like that.

@jamesfischer2427

7 ай бұрын

​@@justseffstuff3308If the left doesn't refer to the right as "gender critical" what term do they use? (other than fascist)

@jamesfischer2427

7 ай бұрын

​@@DominoPivotI think you are trying to define a term that you did not coin. When the right (as I self-identify) uses the term 'woke' we are usually referring to a person's tendency to enforce compliance on others, rather than to refer to any personal belief the individual may have I person may be trans, but not be woke (in my terms) is they do not attempt to force others to comply with their beliefs. In my mind, 'gender critical' does not imply malice where 'transphobic' does. 'woke' may be used with or without implication of malice, but that's just my opinion

I'm a trans man, I've asked my colleagues for years not to ask people their pronouns in introductions, they never listen. They would rather "respect" a hypothetical trans person they never met, rather than the "weird" trans man they know. I've always been put in a bad spot when people ask me, when I was trying to stay closeted or not. I think most people nowadays just have a weird mental idea of what trans people are, that they refuse to interact with the reality in front of them, whatever that may be, they just love or hate on their mental construct. Thanks for the video.

@merisav4171

7 ай бұрын

as I thought, asking for pronounce is outing someone

@blah914

7 ай бұрын

yeah, its the sad consequence of ppl getting cancelled and losing their jobs, doxxed and hung out to dry online for not doing it 🤷‍♀️

It's technically not a gendered word but I always find the term "Drama Queen" interesting because it can be used to refer to men and women.

@sazji

Жыл бұрын

It started out in the gay community to refer to a particular type of "queen." :-)

@BryantMitchell

Жыл бұрын

Eeh, it can be seen as emasculating to use it against a male

@sazji

Жыл бұрын

@@BryantMitchellYes, it's still a gender-loaded term.

@powerofk

Жыл бұрын

@@sazji Which is why, usually, when referring to boys, we'll usually say "Drama King" instead. Which pretty much means, you're a guy, so "King", but you're acting like a drama queen regardless.

@sazji

Жыл бұрын

@@powerofk Never heard that!

I can definitely relate with point 6. At my old school, there was a girl who asked me my pronouns. Not wanting to out myself as trans and also not wanting this person to only ever use she/her, I said any pronouns are fine really. She proceeded to ask me persistently, as if my answer wasn’t good enough. I’m at a different school right now, my friends mostly all use he/him for me :)

@michaelcherokee8906

8 ай бұрын

Doesnt saying any pronouns are good IMMEDIATELY out you as trans?

@wtnv

8 ай бұрын

@@michaelcherokee8906 i mean it probably depends on the listener; the guy in the video literally said he's fine with any pronouns and he isnt trans

@ericherde1

8 ай бұрын

I’d say it potentially outs you as either (1) trans, (2) an anti-trans bigot, (3) a cis ally to trans people, or (4) someone who doesn’t really care, because all four of those groups could have reasons for saying any pronouns are fine. If someone told me that any pronouns are fine, I’d be racking my brain trying to figure out which of those categories they are in.

@thechumbucket8986

8 ай бұрын

​@@ericherde1no anti-trans bigot would say this.

@ericherde1

8 ай бұрын

@@thechumbucket8986 I've heard that exact statement from anti-trans bigots before, with a strong tone in their voices.

Dude whenever I watch a video like this or read an article about gender diversity and everything they always say that India socially/culturally has 3 genders. I have spent my entire life in India and I have no idea what they are talking about, there isnt any socially accepted (or for the most part socially known) 3rd gender. Whenever I try to find out who they are talking about I find out that they are talking about Hijra (or any variation of that word), Hijra is a word used to describe transgender people, it is not a 3rd gender like non-binray, it the transition from one gender to another, and it isnt accepted in any Indian culture, its always shunned upon and viewed disgracefully, it isnt some socially accepted thing like these people make it out to be

In terms of grammatical gender in other languages, I love how "girl is neuter" is always the example for how German is illogical - it's actually one of the very few examples that follow a clear rule: the German word Mädchen is a diminutive of basically the same word as English "maid" for a young woman (so a very very young woman) and diminutives are always neuter in German. My favourite example of gender nonsense in German is actually cutlery - knife is neuter, spoon is male and fork is female :-)

@SmallSpoonBrigade

Жыл бұрын

The rule there isn't really what people think. German has genders and most of the time the gender comes from the ending. So, you get the rule that pretty much anything ending in -chein is neuter regardless of what the original word was. Similarly, the feminine word Frau becomes neuter when you attach -lein to the end, so Fräulein is neuter. Without a general rule like that, the language would be an absolute nightmare to speak or write without a computer as you'd have to memorize all the genders of the words rather than just a substantial minority of them. Also, I think it's unfortunate that the term gender was chosen to represent these changes as in very few, if any, languages is there a 1 to 1 match between gender of the word and gender of the object to which it refers.

@KangMinseok

Жыл бұрын

People who use German to make a point about (third person) personal pronouns don't actually understand German.

@KangMinseok

Жыл бұрын

@Eichhörnchen Wibbleflup If only Germans wouldn't re-interpret so much nonsense from the US... "das Gendern" with "*innen" is a bastardisation of language if I've ever seen one.

@KangMinseok

Жыл бұрын

@Eichhörnchen Wibbleflup what if xe/xers tomorrow decide that all their words describing them should be neutral and end in "-ax"... das Täterax hat xer ermordet. How many inclusionary fantasies does one need to indulge before enough is enough b s.

@KangMinseok

Жыл бұрын

@Eichhörnchen Wibbleflup slippery slope fallacy is about an alleged chain reaction. My argument wasn't a chain, it was simply that the same logic could apply to different scenarios. The underlying question is simple: Where are the limits of language inclusivity? It's not a slippery slope to shine light on a lack of clarity when it comes to the rules we apply. Not every event must have already occurred for us to account for it, otherwise any form of risk management would inherently be a slippery slope fallacy (which it isn't). But even if it were the case that an event must first occur before we consider its implications, then hereby I identify as a xe/xer and demand this language change in the name of inclusivity (I'm The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster of gender).

As a transwoman, this is the best video I've seen on the subject. Too many armchair youtubers weigh in on pronouns, so it's refreshing to see a linguist tackle a linguistic issue.

@EchoLog

Жыл бұрын

As a detransitioned still nonbinary linguist who wishes English would remove masc/fem and add inclusive/exclusive, same. If you reply to this, tagging me especially, knowingly disagreeing, without asking me questions about what I mean; I look down at you and feel not like an asshole for it. Use your brain, library, elders, and internet more.

@AmberPremo

Жыл бұрын

Same! I though this was really interesting and made some good points. The only point I took issue with was when stating that he wouldn’t be offended if someone used she when referring to him. Let’s be real, MOST men, maybe not all, would quite unsterstandably take that as a dig against their masculinity and react negatively.

@bigfat4172

Жыл бұрын

@@AmberPremo you might be right. I will say that at least in my personal circle of people, including me, my cis dude friends don't really have a pronoun preference either.

@JediPlays0309

Жыл бұрын

hey fellow transfem Emily lol

@manub.3847

Жыл бұрын

@@AmberPremo don't forget, he was talking about the situation when others are talking about you and you're usually not there at all.

You mentioned the Portuguese pronoun “a gente.” This phrase/pronoun is so wonderfully versatile! It can mean you, me, or we; and everyone gets it from context. It is fully gender-free, and it avoids the English mess of using a plural pronoun (they) to mean single third person gender unknown.

@danielamoris5679

5 ай бұрын

Actually "a gente" means exclusively "we", nothing else. At least that's how we use it in Brazil. And it's not gender-free, you can't really be gender-free in portuguese.

@alansmithee419

4 ай бұрын

"They" simply has both meanings in English, just as "you" does. Both are singular or plural depending on context. Anyone who says "they" is only plural is just incorrect. Singular they is older than singular you, both of which were originally (hundreds of years ago) solely plural. Especially if an American tells you "they" is only plural, they're somehow more out of date on the English language than the age of their entire country should allow for. We'd have to revert to a form of middle English if we wanted to use a version of the language which didn't allow these uses of they and you. If "they" to refer to one person is an 'English mess,' so is using "you." Not to mention the entire argument is a *semantic distraction* from the actually important discussion of human dignity.

As someone at least way more interested in linguistics than social subjects, this makes so much sense why our arguments go right past each other as wrong & irrelevant.

@sinenomine2681

8 ай бұрын

I should caution that it is very rare to see people on the right arguing in good faith. Linguistics is inherently a social subject, or at the very least a science whose fabric is composed of human communication and interaction. I would argue that every science and philosophy is, in some regard, social. Even something so remote as, say, chemistry. It is rendered thus by the role of pedagogy in sharing information, in which every teacher must first be taught. Whether or not you can follow this causal chain back to our first analogous, conscious ancestor - wherein said being is an isolated occurrence, which is an assumption that takes great liberty - this is too great a digression to hold relevance. Then we start asking questions like "can the interplay between a subject's mind and the external environment with which it interacts be considered learning?" and then "if so, does the environment teach or does the subject teach itself?" if so "when teaching is an activity, how can something non-conscious and nebulous like one's external environment be said to teach?" and "is it not circular that a subject can teach itself? Does this not suggest the subject possesses some prior knowledge that would, if possessed, render the process of teaching itself unnecessary?" among other questions like "can there be a society of one?" and "is there such a thing as an individual mind?" at which point we have very much ventured outside the scope of linguistics and I need to stop rambling.

@betterbelle29

5 ай бұрын

Eh, not really. On the right it's mostly just a complete disregard for people's actual lives. We know that inclusion plays a huge part in reducing things like suicide in trans and other gender non-conforming people. By taking the aggressive "anti-pronoun" space, you just lose any sort of soundness in your argument because the entire foundation is that you do not care if people are excluded from society or even take their own lives. There's just no discourse at all about correct usage, inclusion or how to integrate new language because the right just doesn't care. On the left it's pretty much just disagreements on how to approach inclusion. Some people take rather aggressive "people who push back will see no sympathy" approaches and some others that take a far more passive approach exactly like in the video. Taking an aggressive approach to inclusion I think is perfectly sound stance to take, especially when the alternative is social isolation or even violence towards those who are different. The argument is just on whether that's an effective approach to changing minds. It often isn't, but there are definitely people out there who are complete lost causes, in which case an aggressive "time to troll them with pronouns" approach is pretty much the best you can do. My uncle, for example, still refuses to refer to my cousin (bearded trans man who's jacked as hell and looks nothing like a woman) as a man using he/him pronouns no matter how much people have corrected him (and no matter how absolutely insane he looks referring to him that way) simply because they're trans. It's been something like 7 years now. That person deserves none of my attention and I take pride in pissing him off.

Ah, at last. A real advantage of speaking Finnish!! 🇫🇮

@barrysteven5964

Жыл бұрын

In case anyone isn't aware - Finnish has just one pronoun which doesn't differentiate between masculine or feminine - 'hän' (she/he) or colloquially 'se' (which actually originally meant 'it' but is used in conversation for he and she too). I believe it's a similar situation in Hungarian and Turkish.

@marcmonnerat4850

Жыл бұрын

Or Turkish I guess

@justmeandthethree

Жыл бұрын

I knew a Finnish girl in college. She was hot.

@thinksie

Жыл бұрын

Mandarin having 3 different characters for He他 She她 It它, but pronouncing them exactly the same - tā. lol

@jwhippet8313

Жыл бұрын

@@barrysteven5964 ő in Hungarian.

One thing I’ve thought about with pronouns that you skimmed right next to with new pronouns is that, if everyone has their own, then it would simply be easier to solely refer to people with their name. If you’re telling a story, or example, and there are six people in the story with their own pronouns, the only options would be to give a list of each person’s pronouns mid-story and hope that the listener remembers while risking the chance that they won’t follow the story at all, or just use the people’s names and exclude pronouns.

@tennesseedarby5319

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, and that just sounds ridiculous. I think that people who insist on having their own pronoun are a bit unreasonable, as that is just saying “you aren’t allowed to use any pronouns for me, and here is a second name you can use instead.” We should just as a society pick a whole set of neopronouns and use them when we need to

@tennesseedarby5319

Жыл бұрын

@Amarok eh, I can also see the usefulness of having xe/xim or something like it, essentially a genderless third person singular pronoun. The usefulness of differentiating it from they is that there wouldn’t be any confusion about referring to multiple people or just one. Or they could work because we already use it in a similar manner. I have a feeling there will eventually be a standard that naturally arises, and we’ll all just go with that

@Best_Blake

Жыл бұрын

@Amarok I feel uncomfortable when calling people it it just feels so dehumanizing

@ksara2883

Жыл бұрын

Generally I'm using pronouns to refer to a person when they aren't there. I'll stick with he, her or they. If the person in referencing wants stomething else, or I don't know their preferred pro nouns and they present in a non gendered or opposite gendered way, I'll use they. To me it's important to also be able to communicate clearly. And sometimes that means using pronouns the person I'm talking to understands, not who the person I'm taking about would prefer and is not present. My partner's sibling views themselves as non binary. I refer to them as they, and the other ways I've just mentioned. If for some reason they come up in a conversation I will try to stick to this unless it's going to cause confusion. People who don't know my partner's sibling will often be confused when I say my partner's sibling. And for an inconsequential conversation about a person that isn't there and will never meet the person I'm taking about, I'll just say sister or she. The conversation doesn't need to be derailed by a person going "huh" or me having to explain they are non binary, what that means and possibly an exchange of opinions on the whole trans thing. Especially if it's just a verbal conversation with a stranger about our familys and having partner's, x number of siblings, etc. Or a person who doesn't agree at all with pronouns and trans issues and has their mind made up and believes their opinion is right. (I'm just not interested in having a debate with a person who has made up their mind that trans people aren't people or don't exist or are trying to control and censor language. Especially when they are talking about my friends and family who I care about. I'm not going to provoke that reaction. Especially over a general question of "does your parter come from a big family?") Personally I think if someone is offended by how I use pronouns well that's a them problem to resolve. I'm being polite by using non gendered language where I can and it's appropriate. I use it also to avoid getting the he/she wrong. To me it is like swearing. Not everyone likes it. If I'm around a person who hates swearing then I won't swear. But when I'm not around them I'll swear as much as it suits me and is appropriate for the context I'm in. Or like calling a person a name they don't like. If the jerk doesn't like being called a jerk then I'm not going to call them that when they are around. I will say they are a jerk when they aren't present. (FYI I'm not claiming trans people are jerks. They aren't. PEOPLE can be jerks and and sometimes it is appropriate to communicate this to other people. Gender identity is irrelevant to how big of a jerk a person is). Yes it is respectful to call people what they want to be called. It's not the only important aspect in communicating. Sometimes clear communication is also important. Context of the situation is important. The audience of the conversation is also important. Or in short, multiple things can be important with different degrees of importance to balance. To me there is no point in telling a story where you have to hash out a list of who has what specific pronoun at the start of the story, to immediately lose your audience's understanding of what the story is all about. And there is doubly no point if the tangent becomes a trans debate instead of about the story you were trying to communicate.

@yeetghostrat

Жыл бұрын

I used to try to do that, and still mostly do it when speaking out loud, but I got layed into over it being annoying and demeaning.

Thank you for bringing up the point that "requiring people to share their pronouns means that you either force people to out themselves... or choose to be in the closet". I've been struggling a lot with my gender identity for the last year. I've never really had to worry about coming out to other people about it if I wasn't comfortable doing so, until a questionnaire came up at work and asked me what my gender identity is. I could either lie and say my perceived gender, put my current identity on there, or write "prefer not to advise". All of those options were very uncomfortable and I couldn't quite pinpoint why until you said that.

@lihns

7 ай бұрын

Honestly the worst when you give pronouns that mark you as trans and people still misgender you, bonus points if it’s by accident

@nightlight2499

7 ай бұрын

@@lihnsthat’s literally me every fucking day… they literally can’t remember

@bawieland

7 ай бұрын

Just want to say you aren't alone

Random note: I really like how Japanese has a bunch of ways to say "I" to convey your gender, personality etc. It makes so much sense to not categorize someone who isn't there to someone listening, although I'm pretty sure Japanese still does that too, but you get the chance to introduce yourself as who you think you are.

@elecbaguette

8 ай бұрын

If only it was a little more extensive and sometimes neutral, it would actually be useful

@rigure

7 ай бұрын

@@elecbaguette Yeah, true! I really do think "I" should be the only pronoun to be categorized, because everything is 1 useless, it doesn't matter and/or 2 is bound to give false information.

I have no problems remembering someone's gender, but I do sometimes have trouble remembering someone's pronouns. So if the pronouns align with the gender (he/him for male, they/them for non-binary, and she/her for female) then I will automatically choose the right pronouns. If they have chosen different pronouns it gets difficult, especially since almost no one chooses pronouns in all the languages of the world , only in their native language. And since I'm bilingual I've got to translate those pronouns too (which with more obscure pronouns is simply impossible) ;). Also , I'm a bit autistic and was bullied before, so 'doing things wrong in social interactions' freaks me out..

@bovineavenger734

Жыл бұрын

Oh don't worry, that's an issue for everyone. It's hard to deal with people with mental issues, which is why parents usually tell children to look away.

@SmallSpoonBrigade

Жыл бұрын

That's mostly because people are inventing new ways of doing it that lack any sort of standards. We've had basically 4 pronouns for the 3rd person in English for quite a while now, we have he, she, it and they. (As in the singular they, not the plural they) A lot of it looks suspiciously like an attempt at trolling as one would need to be specifically educated in not just what it means, but also how to pronounce them.

@reachandler3655

Жыл бұрын

@Chris L As an older person, I struggle using 'it' as a pronoun for a person. 'It' is for inanimate objects, or an insult. I don't even use 'it' for animals.

@SmallSpoonBrigade

Жыл бұрын

@@reachandler3655 IKR, but if somebody asks, you're kind of stuck as not making a sincere attempt is even less respectful.

@CaptainLuckyDuck

Жыл бұрын

@@reachandler3655 For me, using "it" when referring to someone when I was growing up was considered incredibly rude, hurtful, and hateful. "It" meant that the person in question wasn't considered fit enough to even be referred to as human- you were useless and unwanted. I don't personally know anyone who goes by "it", but if I did, I would feel I was being unkind to them. Edited because that was a syntactical mess. T-T

For me, the first step is assuming everyone is trying their best and mistakes are expected.

@EamonWill

10 ай бұрын

lol, that is a false assumption! I know what you're saying though. If someone seems to be trying then give them the benefit of the doubt. But a significant portion of this world has made it very clear that they will not respect anyone different.

@echiko4932

10 ай бұрын

Better than assuming everyone's malicious i suppose.

@Lamont_Smythe

10 ай бұрын

I don't have to try, I'll just describe you as I see you.

@Ekitchi0

10 ай бұрын

​@@EamonWillit's not an assumption set in stone, it's until you get to know the person better. It's simply presumption of innocence. If someone shows malice, obviously you stop giving them the benefit of the doubt. Presumption of innocence is the basic requirement for a civil society. When we let presumption of guilt run things you get chaos.

@MarkHansen

10 ай бұрын

This is so true, even in broader aspects of life, not just pronouns.

I know this is probably not what you were expecting this crash course to be used, but you're being really useful to my worldbuilding and conlangs that go with that worldbuilding! I'm taking abundant notes on how to make the conlangs work on the pronouns thing, thank you! Edit: I am also stealing your flub of "first-person fleural", because I've got a race that grows from an elf-like species, undergoes a chrysalis state, and emerge as very woodsy "dryads" that lose the humanlike sexual dimorphism when they switch to fruit-based plant reproduction. A "fleural" pronoun would actually be useful for them post-metamorphosis lmao Edit Championship Edition: I wonder if polyglots who grasp multiple languages with very different rules have an easier time with parsing through pronoun usage that breaks the rules, and if the more different languages with different pronouns you know, the more easily the rules bend to accomodate a non-standard use.

@Muhahahahaz

8 ай бұрын

Fleural pronouns… That’s awesome 😂

@76rjackson

8 ай бұрын

Pronouns run the gamut from obligatory to infrequently used in language. In English they're mostly obligatory. Same for French and Mandarin. Butb Spanish verbs, for example, show inflections that indicate person and number so pronouns are useful to clarify ambiguity or add emphasis but often not necessary and therefore, omitted. Thai verbs function, for the most part. the same way as Chinese verbs, meaning they're pretty much morphemically inert Despite that. Pronouns are still omitted because context makes it clear, in speech, who's talking about what. But more formal spoken Thai will eschew pronouns in place of titles, nicknames or roles. A customer will be called "customer", for example and to further elevate the respect being shown the pronoun Khun (you) (one of a panoply of 'you' pronouns) can be inserted almost as an honorific. Funny things happen in intergenerational conversations where people call themselves by a childish title when talking to a parent (noo, literally 'mouse') then switch to referring to themselves by a parental role title when talking to a child. One of the ways to disambiguate conversations is to plug in nicknames as pronouns and it's not unusual to hear someone's nickname 2 or 3 times in a complex sentence. A question about the new Spanish pronoun mentioned in the video. Isn't "vosotros" straight from Latin?: There is a new Spanish pronoun, I was told years ago. being used in Colombia, and its environs vos, which is a 2nd person pronoun, used in favor of tu. Vos is also the object pronoun of vosotros so strictly speaking it's an old pronoun that changed its function. First time something like that has ever happened so big surprise, right?😊

@Muhahahahaz

8 ай бұрын

@@76rjackson actually, I think the object pronoun for vosotros is “os” (And vos just uses “te”)

@76rjackson

8 ай бұрын

@@Muhahahahaz thanks. Your correction made me do some checking. Vosotros is newer than Vos and derived from it. Like it did for a bunch of other words, things changed in Spain but the emigrés weren't keeping up. Vosotros didn't get picked up. But Usted i(from vuestra Merced) may actually be newer than vosotros, I think. As a native English speaker I remember feeling my brain bend a little when required to use 3rd person verbs for the 2nd person pronoun. Learning that Usted derived from vuestra merced made it clear, finally.

@Muhahahahaz

8 ай бұрын

@@76rjackson apparently it came from “vos e otros” (vos and others)? Very interesting!

Last year in an annual orientation for members of a charity organization, on a Zoom call, everyone in the meeting was asked to give an introduction and state their pronouns. I followed the audience (reminding me of an old experiment), but I was so offended by that request that I informed the director that while I understood and respected the intention, asking someone to state pronouns can be perceived as just as offensive as mislabeling a person who uses others. We had a good conversation about it, and they took that feedback and rephrased how they asked that question in the future, because obviously they are working to continually improve their practices around inclusion.

@innrex9028

8 ай бұрын

Why would it be offensive?

@bawieland

7 ай бұрын

@@innrex9028 Imagine you are someone who is uncertain about their gender, or is exploring it, or feels they are transgender but are in a workplace or has co-workers who wouldn't be accepting. How comfortable would you feel disclosing that in a work/social setting like that? Maybe you would (congrats on being brave like that!) but others really wouldn't. It can feel like a lot of pressure.

@alanaflynn8878

4 ай бұрын

Do you know how they changed the wording for the future?

@nuckleman81

4 ай бұрын

@@alanaflynn8878I don't, as time commitments required me to leave the program ahead of the next orientation.

@nuckleman81

4 ай бұрын

@@innrex9028 The reason I was offended is because I didn't know it was coming and I was on a call with about fifteen people. That created a social pressure to comply. Additionally, I feel that requiring me to declare my gender identity is equally as wrong as not affording someone from declaring if they so wish.

This is the first video I’ve ever heard recognize that FORCED pronoun sharing might force someone to out themselves. NO LGBTQ person I know has ever mentioned that to me like it’s actually a real issue. Thank you so much!

@lifefindsaway7875

10 ай бұрын

It definitely feels like a catch-22.

@MarisaClardy

10 ай бұрын

I'll say this as a trans person: I never force anyone to share pronouns. I will not ask unless it's obvious to me that they want me to ask,. and instead I will rely on others to share or correct if I assume the pronouns wrong. If someone is trans and comes out as trans to me, I will ask them which pronouns they would prefer I use, but that`;s the only time. I do this because I was forced to do exactly that situation at one point by someone who was attempting to be inclusive, and I did *not* like it. So for me, the most important thing is to let others provide to me how they would prefer I refer to them, assuming I didn't figure it out right away.

@mairoberts1247

10 ай бұрын

Contrapoints did and she got canceled for it

@rebeccahicks2392

10 ай бұрын

I have come across a few LGBTQ persons sharing their discomfort with forced pronouns for this reason, but it's certainly not something very many people are saying.

@JoTheAnomaly

10 ай бұрын

@@mairoberts1247Came here to say this.

I honestly enjoy the japanese ways of pronouns a lot, no one really misgenders you (mostly) cuz they just refer to you by your name or a different type of group which is normally not gender, and you your self can give personality to your first person pronoun.

@user-hq5sp5pi2e

Жыл бұрын

I wish that was always the case but they do hit you with that -chan -kun. Nothing more painful than being called deadname-chan. It does help a lot that you can gender your speech a lot more though. The speech of a woman or a man is pretty identical in English, but in Japanese you can often tell the gender of someone just by seeing what they’ve said written down

@leilatimeful

Жыл бұрын

I’ve always wanted to refer to myself as 俺 (in casual interactions, not at the office), but I would get some wild looks if I did that. The cognitive dissonance would be too much for people. I’ve always found Japanese 1st-person pronouns a little uncomfortable because none of them feel quite right for me. 🤔

@ancalyme

Жыл бұрын

Except kare and kanojo are he and she when the person is not present, it's just that defaulting to names doesn't sound as weird as in English

@Sally-zb4rs

Жыл бұрын

@@ancalyme Most of the times kare and kanojo are not used though. Usually you put the persons name and then drop the topic like instead of saying “Sarah ate an apple. She thought it was good” they would say “Sarah ate an apple. Thought it was good” where is was implied that I am still talking about Sarah. Kanojo especially is avoided because it can also mean girlfriend so it is usually used in that sense. That is why Koyuki said mostly, because while they do have pronouns they don’t use them nearly as often as we do.

@yakopc6600

Жыл бұрын

@@Sally-zb4rs Oh that's interesting

This is so interesting AND helpful! I've been learning Korean for a while, in part, through Zoom. When I go to class, I always try my best to assimilate as much as possible to the culture in my mannerisms, behavior, etc. because that informs the language. That said I do still always have my name and pronouns in my title because it's polite to do so here in America. One day, it was just me in class, and afterward my teacher asked me if I had time for a question. She asked why everyone has "she/her" etc. on Zooms and at conferences. Even though I'm comfortable with pronouns and discussion of them is very normal for the sub-cultures I exist in, and even though I was explaining in English, I was suddenly struggling to explain it to my Korean teacher and couldn't understand why. This video made me realize it must have been because I was having to explain this very Western & English individualist concept to someone from a community centered culture who speaks a language without gendered pronouns. The cultural component is definitely something we don't think about but it makes it all so much more interesting!!

@JussiPeltola

Жыл бұрын

In international situations the pronouns can help, because sometimes finding out the gender of a foreign person from the name is impossible. I agree with this, but as a speaker of a language without gendered pronouns, I do see the anglocentric pronoun discussion as a bit annoying.

@bayrum9803

Жыл бұрын

It's a component of a a subculture - social Marxist gender radicalism, which is not to be confused with LGBT. Transexuals only want the pronouns that correspond to their psychological sense of their gender, and that's how it's always been. Nonstandard pronouns are the product of academic radical leftist social theory, and they are a very recent development. My closest friend uses "they," but doesn't force it on me, however, casually, most of the people I know regard pronouns in the bio as a red flag, i.e., 'this person is probably a woke pain in the ass that I don't want to get involved with.'

@boyishmallard9404

Жыл бұрын

@@bayrum9803 its not that serious calm down

@biglexica7339

Жыл бұрын

@@bayrum9803 social marxist?

@bayrum9803

Жыл бұрын

@@biglexica7339 It's a little complicated, but basically it's a movement that originally evolved in the US post 1960's that took grievance Marxist ideology and replaced class with identity groups like race, gender, orientation, etc. Convince them that they're horrifically oppressed whether they are or not. Bonus points when you can convince them that they're oppressed for being a member of a minority that doesn't even actually exist like non-binary. The deeper into it you get the more ties to economic Marxism, but basically all things "woke" are rooted in social Marxism. "Equity" is an especially dubious social Marxist concept that boils down to the usual redistribution crap - based on "intersectionality," which is a bigoted matrix of woke stereotypes and assumptions about people based on inalienable traits and identity groups (i.e., racism, sexism, etc.).

I’m a trans woman. I’ve been misgendered at a trans support group my another trans woman who knew my preferred pronouns. Because I know I don’t pass. I know it’s difficult to look at me and think, “That’s a woman. I should use she and her when referring to…” The trans woman in question immediately apologised and seemed very sorry. Likely knowing how shit misgendering can make you feel. But more to the point, if one trans lady can misgender another on accident, we know how possible it is for you to misgender us. And we can be understanding to that when it’s by accident, maybe say sorry and try to correct yourself. Agains trans people’s mileages may vary, I’ve been out for 7 years and my paternal grandparents are still getting it wrong. And most people when they meet me get it wrong. So I perhaps have a slightly thicker skin when it comes to that. I expect those who pass more and are generally pretty and treated nicer are more taken aback at being misgendered. Just don’t do it intentionally and you’re probably fine. Yeah, moral of the story always is. Don’t be a dick.

@anonimo6603

7 ай бұрын

(Apologies for the bad English, I use DeepL. Not all terms will have been translated correctly for me, let us focus on the discourse in a general sense). Personal opinion: I am of the opinion that those who talk about "I identify with" only make things harder for everyone. I am a cisgender male, but I wear my hair long. Several times in my life I have been mistaken for a woman, so much so that I have even been kicked out of a locker room. I don't have a problem with that, other than the discomfort of feeling like I am deceiving those in front of me. (If someone filters with me, I have no idea whether they do so knowing that I am a man or because they have mistaken me for a woman.) The fact that even non-transgender people want to use pronouns other than their own gender leads to the suspicion of the person in front of you that it's just a joke, that it's a game and not that it's a request due to a real need. Like we are surrounded by people in wheelchairs who sit in them just because they are tired, because they don't like the idea of walking. In the presence of a real disabled person in a wheelchair, people will clearly be skeptical of that.

@gardenshed6043

7 ай бұрын

@@anonimo6603 I’d like to question what you said about non-transgender people using pronouns that differ from their presumed gender based on their assigned sex at birth. I personally haven’t met any such people so am wondering if perhaps something was lost in translation and you meant something these. Also, with the wheelchair analogy. I feel the need to inform you that not all disabilities are visible. There is a KZreadr called Jessica Kellgren-Fozard. She is disabled, but how she is disabled can vary at different times, sometimes parts of her body will be paralysed. If this includes both her legs she may need to use a wheelchair. But sometimes she is perfectly able to walk on two legs. So you might see her walking and then in a wheelchair on another day. And in general, it wouldn’t be good to call her or others out on that just because they have a disability you don’t understand. I probably haven’t explained that well. But if you look up the video she did on Jameela Jamil she can explain it much better than I.

@anonimo6603

7 ай бұрын

@@gardenshed6043 I mean those who do not suffer from gender dysphoria, in the nonbinary area.

@emlynmatheson4589

7 ай бұрын

@@anonimo6603 A lot of (most?) nonbinary people do suffer from gender dysphoria, and are typically included under the trans umbrella. Some also talk about gender euphoria, which is a very similar idea, but one which is often more accurate (especially to people early in their transition) and also avoids the narrative that being trans is an exclusively negative experience.

On the collectivist-individualist spectrum: In sign language (well, at least Swedish and American Sign Language) you don't get to choose the sign that identifies you (the equivalent of your name). It emerges from people's need to talk about you when you're not there (if you're there they'll simply point to you). So often, if you enter a signing community, you're the last person to get to know your own name! This is kinda the opposite of how it works the small community of Klingon speakers, where finding and choosing a name that obey Klingon phonetics, and feels true to yourself is an expected part. (And no one would even think to contest, or make up a name for you - unless you explicitly ask for help in choosing a name.)

I have a cousin who came out as trans to me and my brother, but didn't want the rest of our family to know. So I've been making mental gymnastics to cover him when there's family around and then switch pronouns when we are alone. It's possible to do this but it's really hard to nail it every single time I talk about him or to him. Especially since we talk in spanish and adjectives don't make this any easier

@FQT_Keller-Ash

10 ай бұрын

omg thx for being such a great ally!!!

@jamesphillips2285

10 ай бұрын

Not a linguist but I think the technical term is "code switching". It can be exhausting. But making the effort is probably appreciated by your cousin.

@corneliahanimann2173

10 ай бұрын

I feel at home with this comment! I would not intentionally use a pronoun that would hurt who I am talking to, but please if I ever end up doing that, don't jump to the conclusion that I am descriminating you, there are just days where my brain is a representation of a leaky sieve. I too have been exposed to a society that made me associate certain features of a person with a certain gender, and sometimes that understanding is woven into my subconscious. I am trying my best. It's amazing that you were keeping up with the pronouns situation honestly, I don't know if I would do well with that.

@_Sixthstep

10 ай бұрын

Yeah, I'm in a similar position in a couple of situations, the trans people I know are actually pretty easy-going about pronouns but I'm from a generally pretty traditional Christian community and so if they come up in conversation I'm constantly having to make judgment calls about whether it is safe to use people's preferred pronouns out of respect and support for them, or whether doing so would actually bring more trouble their way than it would be worth.

@kyleinthejar6829

10 ай бұрын

As a trans guy myself, I’m sure your cousin appreciates you immensely. My mother has to do the same thing with me around certain unaccepting family members and it gets exhausting for everyone. I wish we just lived in a world where trans people could just exist without having to hide their transness, but unfortunately that’s not the world we live in. I’m sure your cousin feels the same, he’s lucky to have such supportive family around him who’s willing to put in the effort to show him he’s respected and loved.

As a fellow Sociolinguist and someone who has deep relationships with folks from across a very broad socio-political spectrum, I think this video is absolutely fantastic! Thoughtful, insightful, and respectful. Definitely subscribing and look forward to more of your content!

@adriant240

9 ай бұрын

You clearly are not in touch with the whole political spectrum. You haven't even reached the centre, much less the Right wing. But keep pretending like you know what you're talking about.

@jocoder255

8 ай бұрын

I figured out I was trans because my sociology teacher taught me the definition of gender identity XD

First, love the sweater! Second, great video. Thank you for the information and the clear and sensitive way you discussed this subject. Number 6 is an interesting one. As an 'out' member of the lgbtq+ community, coming out becomes a way of life. It seems like a singular event, but in reality, we are always coming out because (in my observation) folks assume a hetero-normative stance in conversations, 'What does your wife do for a living?' It can be challenging. Every time it happens, it feels like a splash of cold water in the face, and every time, I have to make a quick decision on how to answer. What are the odds this person will shoot me if I say 'My husband...' etc. It is a complicated subject, and I really appreciate your willingness to chime in with some good science. :-)

Great video. One thing I will comment on is: I think one of the major problems with many “neo-pronouns” is that they often don’t rely on predetermined semantic categories, and are instead at the discretion (or whim) of the individual who coins them. This effectively robs them of their intended purpose: as placeholders for other nouns. If the pronoun has only a single referrent it becomes almost as pointless as simply reusing the original noun in every circumstance. If there could be an agreed-upon set (or several subsets) of various gender-non-conforming pronouns, this would alleviate the aforementioned problem. However, there currently is no such drive to do so, and every person I’ve encountered using “neo-pronouns” has chosen them arbitrarily without consideration of wider application. Personally, I find the simplest and most graceful solution is to subsume any distinct sex-derived pronoun categories to a single, universal category. This is already found in many languages like Finnish. The singular “they, them” is probably the easiest transition within English, and one which already enjoys wide usage. Now, in my completely unbiased opinion that is in no way linked to my interests, I move we adopt Sumerian “ane,” meaning “he/she,” and “bē” meaning “it.” I’m kidding of course, but I do find that languages which use a simple two way distinction between “human” and “non-human” (like Sumerian does) to be a rather simple and elegant system. As a transgender person myself, I find such a categorization provides enough ambiguity to not cause offense or misunderstanding, while also delineating humans (or anthropomorphized non-humans as a courtesy) from other nouns. In the end, as you say, the most important thing is respect and willingness to be kind.

@spacegrass6632

6 ай бұрын

this is a good comment

@_koraki

6 ай бұрын

This! I find neopronouns to be very interesting and cool but they just don’t work out due to needless complexity and lack of standardization

@tetyoonlee4373

6 ай бұрын

One thing which wasn't really discussed in the video because it's sort of an aside to the point being made, is that move towards singular 'they' isn't just due to the desire to be respectful for trans and non binary people, but also the desire for a gender-neutral pronoun in English when the gender is unknown. While "he" is often the default gender which IMO rightfully causes concern by itself but that's arguably not even the worst thing. In reality we tend to use gendered pronouns in s based on stereotypical expectations which yes might be true based on averages but which do have sexist implications in how we think about things. For example, I'm fairly sure it's very common people might say something like "when you see the doctor, tell him" yet "when you see the nurse, tell her", even when the doctor or nurse are unknown to the speaker.

@mr.flibblessumeriantransla5417

6 ай бұрын

@tetyoonlee4373 Very true! And its use as a singular neuter pronoun has been around for a lot longer than most people think. It is etymologically borrowed from the Norse third person plural demonstrative “þeir” and has been used in English as a third singular neuter pronoun with human reference (as opposed to “it”) since at least the 1300s. As such, I think it should be more than adequate as a third-person singular human-gender pronoun. When talking to some members of my family who are unaware I’m trans, my girlfriend uses “they” when referring to me, and it has never raised questions. While I understand the desire for extra sets of pronouns for gender-non-conforming people, I find that use of singular “they” is probably the best and most easily adaptable for the general public. At the end of the day, and I wish the video had discussed this in greater depth, the constraints are purely linguistic circumstance and based on the structure of the particular language. Indo-European languages have historically developed from either a two-way masculine-feminine split or three-way masc.-fem.-neuter split. As I mentioned in my OP, there are plenty of languages which don’t have this distinction. English has already dropped grammatical gender in its noun classes, pronouns are the only remaining relic. (This is one reason why English speakers often find learning languages like Spanish or Hindi so tedious: how and why are things like “table” or “car” either masculine or feminine?). Anyway, sorry for rambling. I agree that singular “they” is probably the best option and ticks all the boxes for inclusivity and practicality.

Thanks for this video. I’m a dude with autism, I wanna respect people’s pronouns and not offend someone but I absolutely suck at them and they’re actually very mentally exhausting for me.

@redonja09

10 ай бұрын

You are not alone. I don’t have autism and it’s exhausting for me too.

@testificles240

10 ай бұрын

im a trans autist... i get confused at MY pronouns... how the f do they expect me to honour theirs?

@Lamont_Smythe

10 ай бұрын

I don't waste any energy or time on pronouns. I'll just describe someone as I see them.

@corinneskitchen

9 ай бұрын

Do not waste your mental energy on other people's narcissistic delusions.

@gaswe9236

9 ай бұрын

​@@corinneskitchenbooooo...... Bigot is spamming half the comment section with hate. Come on, youre better than that

There is an interesting situation here in Norway rn because of the use of "they". The norwegian male pronoun is "han", and the Norwegian female pronoun is "hun", and a few years ago, a third gender neutral pronoun was added: "hen". However, because of all of the screaming about "they" on the internet. A lot of teens are directly translating the word they and using the norwegian word "de". Which is very confusing because in norwegian "de" is only used singular in second person formal. Otherwise it is plural third person. Therefore, when people use the word "de" about someone in Norwegian it makes the person sound like they have a personality disorder or something.

@thomgizziz

10 ай бұрын

Which is very confusing because in norwegian "de" is only used singular in second person formal. Otherwise it is plural third person. It is the similar in english. Third person plural. Second person they is only used for an unknown subject. It is just as much madness in English.

@divxxx

9 ай бұрын

I'm not a native English speaker, so I don't have English engraved in my brain. So, just like I costantly learn new things about the language and start using them, it could potentially be easier for me to use the singular they to refer to a non-binary person. However that's not the case. This is because I don't have any non-binary person to talk to or about, therefore this special use of the word is so rare that it's impractical. It's like having a very fancy avocado slicer, bought specifically to slice avocado and only avocado. But you don't ever buy avocados, and when you do it occasionally, you forget you had the avocado slicer and use a normal knife instead.

@knrdvmmlbkkn

9 ай бұрын

@@thomgizziz "a third gender neutral pronoun was added: "hen"." I don't use that ridiculous term, and neither should anyone else. "in norwegian "de" is only used singular in second person formal." No, Norwegian (capitalised). That would be "De" (capitalised). Though it doesn't affect the pronunciation. But the objective form is "Dem" (as opposed to "dem" for third person plural). .

@littlestbroccoli

8 ай бұрын

Facepalm. Your language has what we wish English had, and the teens still went with third person plural 😮‍💨🙄

@bluecolibri9413

8 ай бұрын

Yup. 😑@@littlestbroccoli

Just found this channel and loved the recent videos. Got recommended this, and I was really worried about the content. Very happy to learn my new favorite linguistics channel is run by an academic, not an ideologue.

First of all, I think this was a fascinating video, and a real eye opener. Secondly, I love that you used "grok" in a sentence, like everyone uses that every day. Thanks for that, and everything else.

I have never seen a KZread title use the phrase "woke left" and not be incorrect about everything. Excellent video

@sketch4363

Жыл бұрын

I was so worried lol

@BoojumFed

Жыл бұрын

TRUTH!

@wolfblaide

Жыл бұрын

And he's even using the term apolitically! (as apposed to as slang/derogatory/meaningless usage)

@demcurvs

Жыл бұрын

@wolfblaide Progressive left would be more accurate, my guess is that it was to draw attention tbf. Far right people are more likely to click and listen if they think it's criticizing "woke people". Lol

@wolfblaide

Жыл бұрын

@@demcurvs Well yes, but I don't think "progressive" captures the full intent for the video. "Woke" seems to be better, as it come across initially as wrong or potentially offensive, then you realise it isn't. That fits very well with the video.

was unsure how this video would go due to the loaded subject matter, but i'd say you did a great job! keep up the good work :)

@languagejones6784

Жыл бұрын

Thanks, I'm glad you liked it! I try (and maybe don't always succeed) to model having these discussions in ways that are a little more calm, while taking people's concerns seriously

@derekb4977

Жыл бұрын

@@languagejones6784 the T has got to go LGB without the T now as a real gay man my goal is to get rid of trans activists and help Detrans voices grow.

I'm so glad you addressed this! I mostly try to avoid the issue and I opt for "kind", too, when the situation arises. Such times.

I wish more people would be this reasonable.

I've always found the notion of "preferred" pronouns, or presently the term "my" pronouns a little bizarre at best. After all, _I_ don't have pronouns, languages have pronouns and they're basically designed to be grammatical tools, as you clearly explained here, they are used to replace nouns in sentences. Also, the term "preferred" implies that someone's identity is just a preference and not something that is intrinsic to them as a person. Which is likely why the term "preferred" is no longer used when referring to pronoun usage.

@SmallSpoonBrigade

Жыл бұрын

That's because it's a massive imposition for a tiny group of people who individually may or may not even care. Asking somebody for their pronouns is rude and really needs to stop. It's very much the same basic idea as asking if somebody is gay or lesbian. It's not something that we would generally do except in some pretty specific circumstances and doing so forces people to make an up or down vote as to whether they're out or not. By all means, if somebody gives you a preferred pronoun or a different name from what you were expecting do your best to respect their request, but people shouldn't be rooting around in case there is some other preference. When people say that you shouldn't assume somebody's gender, that's not really what they mean, what they mean is that you should ask if it's not clear, not that you need to personally ask absolutely everybody, including those that are very clearly one gender or another or if it's not even relevant to what's going on.

@BoojumFed

Жыл бұрын

Yeah, that knife cuts both ways depending on the group/ context you're dealing with. Personally, i tend to default towards preferred because A) I'm an old fuck and it was the first one I learned; B) When describing someone's pronouns to others it feels much more respectful to the one being described to say "They *_prefer_* you say X" than "They *_are_* a X". Keeps the focus on the fact that they're a person capable of making decisions as opposed to an object for everyone else to describe either correctly or incorrectly (I know we do that all the time with cis-folk, race, nationality, etc, but it seems to me like a subject where respect is easier to forget for some folks and I'd rather err on the side of giving them an extra couple straws to grasp at); And C) I have no actual power to force a third-party speaker to do anything. If the discussed person's preference isn't enough to make the third party care, then that third party was never gonna care anyway...

@Hardcrafter2807

Жыл бұрын

@DBSTKjS I didn't say anything about names. Names are not pronouns, which shouldn't even need to be stated, but here I am. Names are not grammatical tools like pronouns are.

@TheDawnofVanlife

Жыл бұрын

@@SmallSpoonBrigade I think as younger folks are moving away from gender norms, it's completely impossible to know for sure. I know a few people for whom I would have defaulted to he or she quite without hesitation by visual reading if not for them indicating a 'they/them' preference. Now I am in a position (theater/stage management) where we do paperwork that includes names and identifiers (like contact sheets) where we do ask to get ahead of an in person meetup and to properly write about the performers and designers with preferred pronouns on anything written where pronouns might be used. I have noticed a tiny bit of 'whatever's respectful' as well, indicating a complete detachment from a preference.

@duckymomo7935

Жыл бұрын

I refer to everyone as guy or girl non withstanding of their actual gender nor does it matter at all Worst of all a woman can use he pronouns and still be a woman but I would be confused because the pronoun she chose doesn’t describe her actual gender I’ve never seen a guy get angry being called a she nor does it matter, especially since they’re 99% of the time not there to hear it It’s like what

In Thai, the FIRST-person pronouns are the gendered ones and not usually third-person. Which makes more sense in a way: puts it on me, not others, to express my identity. On the other hand in practice I felt strange calling myself "pom" (masculine) but there is no neuter option except in close company (essentially a "royal we"). In music and poetry the feminine first-person is common regardless of the singer/speaker. But I LOVED that third-person was neuter: everyone is kao. Ter is an option to distinguish females. Ter is also "you" in romantic context. It's weird and neat that a girl can say "we love her" to her boyfriend and he can say it back. I definitely am a fan of respecting the listener first, so first- and second-person are key, and even the global "We", perhaps my truest identity and value, grows out of that.

I love how you mention that some people don’t understand neopronouns and that’s okay. Respect and understanding are very different things

@sambal777

7 ай бұрын

I dont respect neo pronouns. Its a game played by attention seeking narcisists.

@fallenmango8420

6 ай бұрын

There’s not really a lot to understand. They’re just new pronouns. The name is all there is to it.

Glad I stumbled upon this. It's nice hearing a knowledgeable person speak my thoughts with a lot more evidence to back them up. Still many questions I need answered but I've come to realize that most heavily delve into culture and/or philosophy. Thank you. /gen

I feel like this is one of those issues where the problem is exacerbated by media (both social and traditional) amplifying extreme opinions. In reality I've never met anyone who got angry if someone used the wrong pronouns for them, provided they weren't doing it deliberately to cause hurt or make a point. (This isn't to say it didn't upset them to be misgendered, but they didn't take this out on the other person if it was perceived to be an honest mistake.) Similarly, I haven't actually met anyone who would deliberately use the wrong pronouns for someone when they'd been made aware of the correct ones, even if they actually didn't "believe" in trans or gender non conforming people. I'm not saying these two people don't exist, but reading the arguments put forward in mainstream media could lead you to believe that everyone on the planet could be categorised either as a respectful human being who always does their best to get everyone's pronouns right or one of these two types of people I've never met.

@DavidLindes

8 ай бұрын

Indeed. There are definitely exaggerations all around.

@rigure

8 ай бұрын

Exactly!! I have people misgendering me, even calling me a woman outright, not just "she" but only one single person does it to make a point. Everyone else simply isn't capable of understanding the subject (I'm autistic myself so I'm constantly around people with differently functioning brains) I let them. In fact, I'm the one who told them it's okay. I did ask that they refrain from using any gendered terms other than pronouns, like "woman" since those aren't needed while not using gendered pronouns in German is linguistic heII (it feels too awkward and I respect that, and I can't afford to 'fix' my body so it's difficult to remember I prefer "he") but I get that they just can't remember and I tell the people that do use the correct terms that I greatly appreciate them, but also that there's no need to correct anyone because I know they don't have bad intentions. Even the one who does it to make a point ( and also might be waiting for me to negatively react) is autistic. I know the reason he's so rightist and so severely against trans people is because he whole heartedly believes that biology is all there is and humans aren't anything more than our outer shells

@DavidLindes

8 ай бұрын

@@rigure I wonder if you can find a way to prompt "the one who does it to make a point" to go on an "autistic special interest" dive into the intricacies of biological sex (the myriad forms of intersexuality in humans, sex in other species, etc.). Might change the outlook, indirectly??? :)

@rigure

8 ай бұрын

@@DavidLindes Hehe I guess I could try to get him interested ^-^ I do think his aversion to a lot of humans is quite deeply rooted, so I'm not sure he won't just fight any interest he might get, but it may be worth a shot!

@boiledelephant

8 ай бұрын

Definitely. Offline, politeness tends to win. I don't 'believe' in gender identity or trans and still happily use people's preferred pronouns, because why wouldn't I? They're just trying to live their best life and be comfortable, only an asshole would deliberately undermine that.

I get asked why I have my pronouns on my work email. The reasons are my name is gender neutral and I work with mostly women. I didn't mind the occasional "good morning ladies" at meetings, but since I work at home mostly people were referring to me as a woman and would tell the clients I'm a woman. When, I would call the clients some thought I was a scammer, because my voice is the opposite of what a woman would sound like. The he/him pronouns helped.

@3dorderify

9 ай бұрын

That’s what Mr. is for; mister obviated the need for expressing “he/him” on written or spoken exchanges.

@allmight7085

9 ай бұрын

@@3dorderifyyea

@tchristianphoto

9 ай бұрын

@@3dorderify Except that it's rather strange to include an honorific such as Mr./Mrs./Ms. in one's email signature.

@stacykrasnikova7744

9 ай бұрын

That's very thoughtful of you. I had quite a bit of trouble figuring out whether to use Mr or Ms when referring to someone I've never seen in person... now I'm also wondering how to refer to someone who's pronouns are they/them🤔 are they Mr, Ms or some new variant, I saw Mx once, but since English is my second language I'm not sure

@unmarketableplushie

9 ай бұрын

​@@stacykrasnikova7744Mx is a gender neutral equivalent of Mr or Ms that some non-binary people use. It's usually pronounced like the word "mix" or "mucks". It's a relatively new thing but it's becoming more common.

First video I've seen of yours. You seem like a really cool dude who is interested in what he talks about. I respect that. Looking forward to watching more.

I thought this was going to be a lot worse than it was, but you've actually brought up a lot of truly amazing points and even put into words a few thoughts of my own. As a transgender woman, thank you!

I like this take on pronouns! In german we have it even worse / more complicated, since there is no german translation for they/them. For one friend, we use the pronoun "es", which most closely translates to "it", but they wanted to use a gender neutral pronoun that people are already used to, so "it" was really the only choice available. In my circles and friend group, we mostly do it exactly as you described in the end. Pronouns are an optional specification for us; Many of us couldn't care less which pronouns are used to refer to us as long as it's understandable and we respect the choice of those to whom it is important. And when referring to them when speaking to my grandparents for example, I normally use "she" instead, because it's more important to bring the point of my stories accross, than to force my 80 year old grandparents to relearn pronouns for a friend of mine they'll never meet. All in all great video and a very thoughtful and informed take on this topic. Too many people appear to shut off their brains and start shouting when pronouns are even mentioned. (sorry for possible grammatical errors, it's my second language and quite late ^^)

@MrKoalaburger

Жыл бұрын

I'm only halfway through an A1 course, but isn't ihr a translation of "they"?

@MrKoalaburger

Жыл бұрын

Er nvm I guess ihr doesn't work at all when I took 5 seconds to think about it lol

@holocene5451

Жыл бұрын

​@@MrKoalaburger "Sie"/"ihnen" are the third person plural pronouns, so those would be closest translation of "they"/"them". But yes, it doesn't work that well, because the third person feminine pronouns are "sie"/"ihr" (so in the nominative and accusative it would sound like you're referring to a woman/girl) and verbs also have plural inflections, so rather than e.g. "she is tall"/"they are tall" you have "sie _ist_ groß"/"sie _sind_ groß". And "es" is neuter, but it's only really used for inanimate objects, animals and children ("das Kind"/"das Mädchen"), so it's not ideal either... Hope you're enjoying learning German!

@rainghostly

Жыл бұрын

@@MrKoalaburger Yeah, the problem is that our "they" is the exact same word as "she": "sie", which is also the current polite way to adress someone, our formal "you". "Ihr" was actually used for that purpose until around 1800 or 1900. We also use "ihr" for saying "her", as in "her book/ihr Buch", and it's also the plural form of "you". So yeah, every immediate alternative is gendered or has unfitting connotations already :/ we kind of just dance around the terms for now. My nonbinary friend knows the struggle better than we do and that we love them the way they are, with or without proper german pronouns. 🥰 Oh and also: good luck, don't give up. We know it's a hard language, respect for learning it!

@MrKoalaburger

Жыл бұрын

@@rainghostly yeah... I was thinking ihr as in "plural you" (or they, in a way) would be a workaround, but yeah that's my English brain speaking. Doesn't actually work at all lol.

I used to get so emotional about this because it’s just plain stressful when I don’t understand why it matters. Thanks for making it less scary

@fancydeer

Жыл бұрын

...if it doesn't matter why are you so emotional about it? if someone says "hey can you call me (insert gendered term here)" just do it? since, like you said, it doesn't matter. why would it make you so emotional?

@twostupidasianonecupnoodle

Жыл бұрын

@@fancydeer people are scared of what they don’t understand. hopefully OP gets more knowledge on this subject and gets less emotional about it. people constantly learn and grow.

@alannothnagle

Жыл бұрын

@@fancydeerYes, but 3rd person pronouns are really only used in the person‘s absence, so there is an automatic fear of denunciation and public shaming that burdens personal relationships, particularly if the preferred pronoun appears unnatural or contrived.

@honk42069

Жыл бұрын

@@fancydeer OP didn't say it doesn't matter. Is reading hard for you or something?

@peterlewis2178

Жыл бұрын

@@fancydeer Because, as stated in the video, it's not as easy as you think. It can be pretty mentally taxing to try to navigate respectfully, and the stress is only compounded when the whole concept seems illogical to you. Because it feels like you need to constantly bend over backwards for something pointless. That can understandably be frustrating and get someone emotional.

You bring up some really terrific points. I think one part of the problem that is never mentioned is how incredibly serious everyone has become around the issue. As you say it’s not black and white. This is not a “set it and forget it” issue. It means bringing more awareness into conversation. After becoming wholly addicted to devices this seems a necessary consequence. But there also needs to be more humor and compassion around these conversations because they are uncomfortable. Humor and compassion are social lubricants that can bridge the awkwardness which will naturally arise. In essence it would be great if we could be less fragile and self critical around making mistakes. I think this is all a sign of progress that the social consciousness is advancing toward these topics of inclusivity. Of course we are going to be all elbows at first. Great video.

This video is so valuable!! Thank you for making this, I have felt these struggles, without a way to describe why or pinpoint the source.

I've never heard something that made such pure and simple sense as this video. You encapsulate everything I've ever wanted to say about the gender debate but was never able to fully articulate. I especially resonated with "If someone tells me what pronouns they believe they should be addressed as, I'll do it out of politeness, even if I don't fully understand it", and "don't force people to categorise themselves". I also like your idea of prioritising respect for your listener and using pronouns they'll understand rather than intentionally using a pronoun you know won't be understood. That will just cause a breakdown in communication, for what is in my opinion no good reason.

@cras17

9 ай бұрын

He hardly even said anything really

@navijha122

9 ай бұрын

Same. Personally, I believe there are only two genders that can't be changed but I'm not going out of my way to disrespect others because of my personal beliefs. And no, it does not make one bigoted or hateful simply for having a different *personal* opinion, that is generally only applicable if you hate or are vitriolic to others for some arbitrary reason. I'll try my best to use people's pronouns and however they chose to identify is fine. As long as they are not hurting others, they have the freedom to do so and I feel compelled to give everyone basic respect and dignity.

@Jon0007723

9 ай бұрын

@@adriant240 Well there's one thing you said that I agree with - I don't personally agree with having lots of new invented pronouns to describe everyone's own interpretation of what gender means, a simple "they" is fine for people who don't feel like they fit the binary. But when you start your comment with "I didn't watch the video but I believe X about it", you don't really give yourself a leg to stand on. Plus insulting people randomly is never gonna make anyone wanna listen to your point. I also automatically put anyone who uses the phrase "woke" in the bin because it's literally only used by bigots to define any aspect of being more accepting to people that they don't personally like. Society has moved on to a point where you're not allowed to say n word or f word or the like, so you just call them "woke" instead because the meaning of that word is ephemeral enough to be publically allowed but everyone still knows you're just using it in place of a slur.

@adriant240

9 ай бұрын

@@Jon0007723 I want to be polite, but we are far past that point. Believe me. Society has gone insane and extremely dumb (people like you) and at this point I'm all out of patience. I apologize but that's just how it is. It just needs to be said, no more sugar coating and being nice.

@skyisreallyhigh3333

8 ай бұрын

Why don't you believe there are only 2 genders that cant be changed?@@navijha122

Finally someone that takes a neutral and kind approach to this issue. Thank you for sharing your view❤

@languagejones6784

10 ай бұрын

Thank you!

@JohnSmith-ns6dp

9 ай бұрын

This isn’t neutral at all.

@p.s.shnabel3409

9 ай бұрын

@@JohnSmith-ns6dp Agreed. Languagejones should have done deeper research into the nuances why people don't go in for this whole pronoun kerfuffle; he sounds like he got his talking points from random left-leaning publications. I'm not trying to claim he's completely wrong - there will be people who fit his description. But in reality, it's a lot more complicated than "don't tell me what I can do".

@offroadr

9 ай бұрын

@@p.s.shnabel3409, Since almost any social or psychological conversation is generally more nuanced than any discussion you might hear, (nuance is pretty fractal in these situations), do you mean to say we cannot talk about something in which we are not taking sides? Your point isn't clear to me. Yes there are many reasons not to give into to these new pronouns. How many? Count the people that agree with that and divide that number in two. Unless you do not count ALL the nuance. Let's change things. My name is Wayne, this is what I like to be called, you might call me Bob by mistake, or you might just refuse to call me Wayne because you are a jerk. Perhaps I got married and changed my last name, you talk to someone about me and use my previous name in the conversation, because it just makes the conversation easier. Or perhaps you mention my name had changed at the beginning of the conversation and use my new name. This is fine. If you call me by some insulting name or use my previous name to put down my marital choice, during the conversation, that will also work for you. But I might take offence and likely you are just being a jerk. This is the neutral options you can state, since names are not as emotionally high strung, this is pretty easy to get the vast majority to agree to. Suggesting that you might be a jerk by using the insulting or incorrect names with the intent to be disrespectful is kind of obvious. Now apply all that same logic to pronouns or any other way of referring to someone and the same basic morality is the same. First think of someone you are chatting to online. How do you know their sex? You might not unless they tell you. I could tell you I am a girl and you wouldn't know different, so it is me labelling myself. In person, if you called me a she, because somehow my bald head didn't give a way my default and prefered gender, then you are not being a jerk, if you call me a she, because you think I am being weak or a bad driver, that would make you a jerk and sexist. If I was more like Pat and you called me she just because you think I look feminine when you know I am a guy, you are being a jerk. Now if I just felt more like a girl and told you I am a girl, you still wouldn't know my sex, so what is the difference really. So the difference, why should I be able to choose my proper noun, but not my pronoun? Chances are the people with a huge emotional belief in the issue is not caring about the linguistic correctness, they are more swayed by the emotional aspects, like I don't want something else to remember, or they just don't care how I see myself. Chances are I will talk about a friend that was born a man and identifies as a woman as she. But if I am talking to someone who knows the same person and is very uncomfortable using that pronoun, I will use he. If the two are together I will be respectful to the person I am talking about, since I am talking to the both of them, the fact that I am talking about them adds presidence to who I will give more consideration to. But most people I talk to in person, really don't want to offend either, so they tend not to push the issue. I am talking in person not random ranters on the internet. Personally, I hate mistaking an old fashioned guy for a girl in conversation, especially if they hear. I wish pronouns were not sexed. But just like the US changing from imperial to metric would be hard, everyone switching to genderless pronouns would be hard enough that it is fair to not even try. I also hate all these new pronouns and worry about offending someone by forgetting. Is it more nuanced? Of course, I could add more paragraphs, pages, etc, and it would still be more nuanced. but do you get the point, is this good enough?

@p.s.shnabel3409

9 ай бұрын

@@offroadr Yes, you completely missed the point ... but thank you for your reply nevertheless. It's certainly interesting to hear someone else's thought processes on this topic. No sarcasm/irony intended - people are fascinating to me. Let me try it again, and I don't know how to put it more clearly, but Languagejones' representation of the reasons why people are not in favor of/are not going along with the pronoun game are a lot more various than just "muh freedom" (nor do I think that "being a jerk" is necessarily the only right answer, either). And he does not give any of these other reasons any acknowledgment whatsoever, making his video analyzing the situation deeply flawed. Why you personally believe and act as you do has only a tangential impact on this discussion (again, no dig at you, that's just not what I was addressing originally). Neither was I accusing YOU of lacking nuance; how could I when I didn't even know you existed? Finally, I am baffled how you come to the conclusion that I might not be in favor of discussions in cases where not all facts are known? I am simply objecting to one side being misrepresented because of (an obvious) lack of research. How can we have a meaningful and constructive conversation if we don't even understand each other's reasoning and motivations? If you want to know why people might object to playing along with the pronoun game, I'd advise you to start looking for critical voices. You'd be amazed at the variety of reasons. Since I am not in favor of starting anyone's journey off on a bias, I am intentionally vague and not dropping any names where best to start. Good luck either way and I hope you find balance.

Thanks for a great episode. I for one, often find it confusing in English when "they" is used as a singular form (even though I am used to the use of you as singular, so not claiming to be fully logical here). In Swedish we used to have to resort to awkward constructs like: "When someone speaks, HE OR SHE has to..." (Sw: han eller hon) Luckily for us we now have a "non-gender bound" singular pronoun "hen" that we can use whenever we don't want to use "han" or "hon". This works well both for someone who does not feel comfortable with the han/hon classification as well as for any situation where you as a speaker/writer do not know or do not find the gender relevant to the comunication at hand: just as you can use parent insted of mom or dad, sibling instead of brother or sister et c. The only problem as I see it is that when the introduced this word they did not create a separate object form but use the subject form for that too. So that Han-honom, Hon-henne, Hen-hen. (He-him, She-her, _-_).

This is the first of your videos i have seen. I like it very much: you set out what i already believe and value, but with greater learning and communicative skill than i have. I will recommend it to people. And, i am looking forward to viewing more of your videos. 🖖

I was just thinking about this a couple weeks ago. I'll always respect people's preferred pronouns but if anybody asks me what my pronouns are I'd say I literally do not care as long as you are consistent with it and people know you're referring to me. Because pronouns are a linguistic tool, not my identity, not my name.

@jkscout

Жыл бұрын

By "respecting people's preferred pronouns" what you're actually doing is participating in their sexual fetish. A lesbian told me that.

@ijustdocomments6777

Жыл бұрын

@@jkscout This is why lesbians are my favorite alphabet people, they pretty consistently have no time for bullshit.

@jkscout

Жыл бұрын

@@ijustdocomments6777 not all lesbians are like that. For instance, my best friend of almost 40 years won't talk to me anymore since I became a left-wing gender critical. Many people don't know this, but even the founder of gay pride following the stonewall riots, Fred Sargeant, is gender critical. He's been banned from twitter and assaulted by trans rights activists on numerous occasions. It's sad what the T is doing to society, with women and LGB people as its primary victims.

@dolphinbanana3053

Жыл бұрын

@@jkscout name checks out

@seanmadson8524

Жыл бұрын

@@dolphinbanana3053 Don't feed it, this one's clearly hungry

We, as a society, need more discussion like this. It’s refreshing to see someone handle a socially divisive topic with such wit, compassion, sincerity, and consideration to practicality. Thou art a pro at them nouns, yo.

This is why forcing legislation about this is such a slippery slope..

Coming from a nonbinary trans guy this video was probably one of the best explanations of gendered pronouns I've seen. I've been on both sides of changing my vocabulary and asking other people to change theirs. English doesn't really have gendered terms that really match how i feel (in mathematical terms I'm guy on the complex plane) and I think it's a really cool thing that vocabulary is evolving as we better understand ourselves. I might not understand French but you sure do, and that makes the world much richer.

I really like your take on this. I think the "know your audience" thing can go both ways. You don't want to confuse/alienate the person you're speaking to in the moment. But you also don't want to out the person you're talking about if you don't know whether or not your conversation parter is safe. Also, my method of allyship (I'm not trans, but I am queer and use any pronouns) is sharing my pronouns when introducing myself, instead of asking someone what theirs are. That gives the other person the opportunity to decide if they also want to share or not. I'm mostly in the habit now of using neutral they/them for people who haven't told me, even if they appear very masc/femme. Some people, even cis, don't present as the gender they are.

@Laura-kl7vi

8 ай бұрын

I like this, to share one's pronouns but don't ask. As he said, we don't ask other kinds of personal information, and that's really sensitive and personal to people oftentimes, for a number of reasons, outing oneself or being socially forced to lie being one. I wish the trans community and allies especially (particularly younger ones who sometimes feel almost aggressive) would not ask. I know cis/het people who are fine with other people identifying with whatever (or no) gender they are who HATE being asked their pronouns. I guess if you are a feminine cishet woman being asked makes you wonder-do I look masculine or something? Or a man--can't you tell I'm a guy? I bet that bugs some (cis-het) men even more than women. Why alienate (even subsconsiously) potential allies?

@michaelcherokee8906

8 ай бұрын

Well I think that using neutral pronouns until a person tells you is stupid! For one, 99.9-something percent of people will line up with the way they look, and for two, asking many of those people what their pronouns are is going to piss them off. I for sure, if you asked me my pronouns, would without a doubt be slightly offended, as the prior commenter got at. Just assume the pronoun unless youre genuinely confused or until someone tells you otherwise, cause we all need to 1) stop being so afraid of offending someone and 2) stop getting offended. If you misgender someone and they freak out, obviously theyre a nutcase that you dont want to associate with anyway.

@melonmw

8 ай бұрын

@@michaelcherokee8906 Clearly you just said that being misgendered would offend you. As I said in my comment, I don't ask people what their pronouns are. I only give mine and if they respond with their own, I use those pronouns when referring to them. If they don't share their pronouns, I usually default to the neutral they/them, because at worst, it may annoy a handful of cis people (who should probably think about why they're so bothered by it). I think that's an acceptable consequence of respecting differences in gender presentation. Finally, I have no idea where you got your 99.9 statistic. Even if that number is correct (it's not), that's still 8,100,000 people. Maybe assumption works for you, but I'm often surrounded by queer and non-conforming people so I find the neutral method works for me.

@russelllawrence3584

Ай бұрын

If a person misgenders you and it matters, you should correct them. I am misgendered on the phone because of the tone of my voice, it's not a big deal.

The "alice looked at alice in the mirror. . ." example made me crack up because i have a friend who sometimes talks exactly like that about a mutual trans friend (who we both knew prior to her transition). he's getting better about it over time though.

@arnaldo8681

8 ай бұрын

Your friend is lucky you speak english. In portuguese the equivalent of 'the' has 2 genders, and it frequently comes before the name

@tigerofdoom

8 ай бұрын

One of my daughter's friends is trans, but the friend's parent did not know, and I definitely did the pronoun dodge at first when I didn't want to be disrespectful but didn't want to out the kid, either. These days, I follow the audience type advice that not outing the kid is more important, so I use the dead name and wrong gendered pronouns in those cases.

@henryambrose8607

7 ай бұрын

@@tigerofdoom Althought it's not ideal, not outing the kid is definitely more important and they would appreciate you doing so if they knew. They'll do it to themselves all the time, for example.

@LightByGrace

7 ай бұрын

It reminded me of when churches were trying to move to a more inclusive way of referring to God so there would be sentences like 'May God add God's blessing to my prayer so that God's love is carried through God's creation"... :p

@greyborg3846

7 ай бұрын

I had to do this for a long time when a long-time family friend transitioned. I don't know why reprogramming my brain with their new pronouns was so much harder than their new name. But it probably took me a year or two and felt really awkward at first.

I'm trans myself, and have used neopronouns that were completely invented, and I agree with you. I feel you were very thoughtful in this every step of the way. As far as your third, 'controversial' point - that totally makes sense and I don't find it controversial for the most part. My comfort level as a trans person is choosing one of the "big three" pronouns to refer to someone who's not close to them when they're not present: he, she, or they. Singular they can be confusing to people, but I'm just not comfortable removing it as an option... that's my limit 🥲 Now, some people genuinely are deeply uncomfortable with all of those three, and those cases suck, but I think it's important to have a "public preference" when you're not present. Or maybe a fourth option of no pronouns, like the many-Alice example; I think I could make that work in a less confusing way, lol. Also, anecdotally, I've found that most trans people are very chill if you make mistakes with pronouns, as long as you're well-meaning and respectful. I feel that hateful people amplify the most extreme cases of trans people being entitled and use that against us - it does happen, but for the most part, you can rest easy as long as you're giving an effort. I've messed up my own pronouns before, it really does take time. We need to tell the difference between folks who are genuinely trying and asking sincere questions vs. people who are fundamentally disrespectful and wasting our time with fake questions. Likewise, allies need to tell the difference between a trans person who's just kind of exhausted from the stress of hearing the wrong pronouns all day vs. a trans person who is entitled and disrespectful about it.

@betterbelle29

5 ай бұрын

> I've messed up my own pronouns before, it really does take time. This is so true and isn't talked about enough. Although it's usually because the right likes to weaponize it to be like "see! even trans people don't believe their pronoun nonsense!" which is just such a horribly dishonest take. There was a brief period around 2-4 months after I came out where for some reason my brain had essentially uninstalled my deadname from my head but hadn't fully installed my chosen name as the name I respond to and I got to the point where I just wouldn't respond to *any* name at all lmao. Was a bit funny cause apparently a few times someone would deadname me, realize they deadnamed me (and that I didn't respond), would call me by my name, I still wouldn't respond, and they'd just be like "Uh hello?" which would grab my attention. I love your last paragraph as well. It's such an important point for everyone to remember.

Very good video and I'm glad you speak up about this even if you think it's a risky topic. I hope it does reach GCs and I hope they do give it a chance. At the core: If you choose to be disrespectful, that is OK, you just need to live with the consequences, whether you care about them or not. I could share some insights what reality looks like for someone who is affected: If someone accidentally misgenders me, I ask them to please refer to me as she/her. It's a REQUEST, I do not FORCE anyone. Usually people are respectful and try it, and succeed! If they make a mistake, it's no problem because I know they are not intentionally disrespectful/rude. If someone continues to use wrong pronouns, they are just being disrespectful and that's it. I avoid contact with them but if I have to talk to them, I talk to them normally, with respect, like I would with anyone. You don't fight fire with fire in this context. If someone does not use pronouns in bio or introduces themselves with them, I use they/them because I try to not step on anyones' toes or make others feel uncomfortable. Before I taught this to myself, I'd make an educated guess and never had any problems. If someone STILL felt uncomfortable, they would speak up about it in a peaceful manner (like I do), so I could adapt. Here in Germany, they/them does not exist in the language we speak, and the "educated guess" method works just fine here.

In the first 5 minutes, you explained this subject better than a whole class on the subject that lasted a semester. 😓

As a language fan, my favorite weird and fun thing that pronouns can do is *mark the tense/aspect/mood of a clause.* This isn't terribly common but it also makes sense if you think about it. Pronouns often encode physical or social distance - "this" / "that" - so why *not* time or evidentiality? Pronouns are a very open class in Japanese, which is a ton of fun; not just for playing with gender but for all kinds of "this is how I define and express myself in this context."

@raizin4908

8 ай бұрын

The cool thing about pronouns being a very open class in Japanese is that this applies to _all_ pronouns, and _especially_ first and second person pronouns. In fact, third person pronouns are pretty rare, because it's more common to use someone's name or drop pronouns entirely and depend on context. It's really a refreshingly different situation from pronouns in English.

@impendio

8 ай бұрын

Another interesting thing about japanese is how basically all third person pronouns are often not true pronouns at all and just nouns doubling as pronouns for context and reference marking, most out of the intrinsically hierarchical way they in general refer to other people. It would be just extremely odd in english (or spanish, my first language) to _always_ refer to people by their last name, especially when you have them in front and there’s no one else, but the polite system in japanese makes this the norm instead.

@Itchy__

7 ай бұрын

​@@raizin4908Yes, I was gonna comment on something about how japanese uses pronouns on this vid, but it would be hard to incorporate the same principals into English. I will say tho, that the thing about relying on context and names instead of pronouns in japanese, as well as the wide variety of first and second person pronouns is very interesting now that I'm learning Japanese. Very different from most (prob all) European languages.

What a great video! I feel like the summary should be, "be a decent person." That means we do what we can to be respectful and we give each other the benefit of the doubt if someone is communicating in a way with which we may disagree. Besides the small minority of people living under rocks trying to actively make people's lives miserable, we're all just trying to do the best we can.

This video is really well done! It’s so incredibly unoffensive to any party or anything… i mean, there are a few things that could be taken as offensive, but a) your tone of voice was really calm, and din’t seem like an angry rant, and b) it’s next to impossible to offend in any conversational topic, but especially highly political views… kudos to you for making such an incredibly “middle winged” video, in a way. Now i’m going to have a reading every comment on this video. There’s something addicting about reading transphobic rants, as well as seeing other peoples/making your own counter arguments that so easily disprove any thought that the bigots have… so to anyone reading this comment, yes i’m trans, yes i’m gay, reply to this however you want… i’ve got a bowl of popcorn and am ready to watch the soap opera known as the youtube comment section STAY QUEER

The third solution hits on the key thing that a lot of people ignore: That we use language to communicate. It's one reason why I personally think that neo-pronouns are counterproductive. Like you explained, the main function of a pronoun is to refer to another noun without having to specify it each time. Signalling sex/gender isn't the main purpose. Adding new gendered pronouns, and expecting people to always get it right or risk causing offense, is just bound to make communication harder and more tense without any real benefit to inclusiveness. There's no law of physics that requires all valid genders to have their own dedicated pronouns, and IMO the only problem with using "they" as a catch-all gender-neutral pronoun is that it can create ambiguity about whether you're talking about one or more people. And yet "they" is still often the most comfortable pronouns for that purpose.

@LC-sc3en

Жыл бұрын

People have been arguing against they as a singular pronoun for various reasons since the 1700s, however, it stuck pretty well despite that. Still languages change all the time in the 1800s someone suggested Thon (a contraction of "the one or that one ) but it never really caught on. Speaking with a friend, we agreed that it could be because some English speakers have trouble with the initial sound. So maybe don or Zon or something would have worked better. Needless to say selecting an alternative gender neutral singular pronoun should at least consider that it couldn't be mistaken for a slurred version of one of the pronouns already in popular use. Then there is the matter of getting it into popular use. From what I can tell the best way to do this is from the bottom up. It needs to be injected in a widely dispersed community that other English speakers love to imitate. So celebrities, latino, or black people. Then once the general population is more comfortable hearing it and can process it well enough it needs to be accepted as a legitimate word by the ruling class of people as to not be discarded as a trend. At least from what I can tell this is how we got a lot of new words in the last 30 years.

@lapiswolf2780

Жыл бұрын

Meanwhile, "it" being ignored while others are forced to do its job.

@wombat1593

Жыл бұрын

I kind of hear this a lot, “expecting people to always get it right or risk causing offence”. I think everyone is (should be) allowed to mess up with pronouns. When some of my friends told me they are trans and asked me to refer to them with different pronouns, I would also mess up a lot in the beginning. But they weren’t mad at me. It’s natural, after all you’re changing the way you think about someone. In my experience so far the intention seems really important. There probably are some trans people out there, that do react in a stronger manner. Of course it isn’t fair of them to expect someone else to get it right from the start. But being misgendered can be really painful to some trans people (since some are more sensitive than others), what I think might or could cause such a reaction. What I’m trying to say is, you don’t have to always get it right. Your intention matters most. And if you meet someone more sensitive, I don’t think you can do much else aside from saying that you’re trying and don’t mean to hurt them.

@Boredman567

Жыл бұрын

@@wombat1593 Of course. That makes sense, and that seems to be how most people treat the issue. It's still frustrating in those few times when you interact with someone who's a big stickler over pronoun gender. Heck, I've had people get upset that I didn't magically guess their gender correctly over the internet. Intent really is key a lot of the time, and I think people understand that for the most part.

@thamessinclair2010

10 ай бұрын

@@lapiswolf2780 It makes sense to have distinct pronouns for animate and inanimate referents, because it makes it easier to parse sentences about animate subjects interacting with inanimate objects.

A really informative video, thanks. 👍 The pronoun debate always makes me think of my mum. She "misgenders" our cats constantly, even though she knows exactly which cat is male and which is female. Luckily the cats don't take offense. But the point is, getting pronouns correct is not easy for everyone, even with the traditional use, so getting worked up about misgendering shouldn't be anyone's default reaction. Kindness and patience goes both ways.

@rodshop5897

10 ай бұрын

True, I've known people who always refer to cats as "she/her" and dogs as "he/him." Not sure why that is, because when asked, those people know they they are not all of one gender.

@Tarrynn

10 ай бұрын

omg my boyfriend and i were just laughing about how his mom always refers to all the cats as she, and how i did it before i was a cat person, because in my mind, dogs were boys and cats were girls 😂

@Lothiril

10 ай бұрын

@@rodshop5897 It's not even like that, my mum knows the sex of each cat and she wants to get it right, but for some reason she mixes them up most of the time anyway. 🥲 As for generally using he/him for dogs and she/her for cats, in my language it's not surprising because we have gendered articles - and cats have a female article while dogs have a male article.

@HappyBeezerStudios

10 ай бұрын

@@rodshop5897 Can be a language thing. English has all kinds of animals as neuer until a gender is determined (like through a name), but many languages have all nouns gendered, including animals.

@Charlyy320

10 ай бұрын

@@rodshop5897 Are they not native english speakers? Because in German we use the masculine article for dogs (DER Hund) and feminine one for cats (DIE Katze) and in my mind I do therefore often assume that cats are female and dogs are male until I find out otherwise. And if I talk about pets before I know their sex I will use "she" for cats and "he" for dogs which makes sense in German but not in English :D

When I was a kid, someone referring to a transgendered person would use "they" or "it" in a purely derogatory fashion. "So then he, or she, or I guess _it_, showed up, and _they_ walked over to...". So now whenever someone asks to be referred to as they/them, it's always hard for me not to feel like I'm being asked to adopt bigoted terms. I know times have changed, and I try to respect people's wishes, but it still always feels awful to call someone a "they". It feels completely dehumanizing.

@turkeylegs1343

8 ай бұрын

damn, just remember it's not about that though i understand why that might be hard

@altruisticflower9627

7 ай бұрын

Why would singular “they” be any more dehumanizing than plural “they” or “you” (singular or plural)? I understand the concern with “it”, but I haven’t seen “they” used in the same fashion.

@Well_Earned_Siesta

7 ай бұрын

@@altruisticflower9627 because the very reason for plural "they" is to abstract the individual human beings with with lived experiences, personalities, hopes, dreams, etc, into an amorphous "blob" with generalized, mean-averaged descriptors. It's a small act of dehumanization that we do because it's impossible for the human mind to hold the complexity and full depth of so many individual human beings in the mind at one time. In American English we take this a step further by conjugating many of our proper nouns in the singular, ie, "Google _has_ announced a new round of layoffs, _they_ will release further details next week." The grammatical structure casts "they" (Google) as an amorphous blob that is now completely removed and devoid of the actual human people that make up the company and the decision those humans have made. Thus to attach "they" to an individual human being, is actively abstracting that person, "blobing" them, to their face. In some sense, I get that this may be the point for someone who identifies as non-binary or fluid-gendered. But unfortunately the only words we then have to describe and address them are ones that are dehumanizing by definition. I think it would be easier to use neologisms like "ze", and far kinder to individuals who feel a single (binary) gender doesn't accurately suit their self-perception. I don't want to further marginalize people who clearly already have enough struggles in their life. So one "work around" I've been using is the British cultural custom of only referring to a person by their name when they are present, ie not using he/she/etc when the person you're referring to is physically present. I'm American, so this has taken some effort as our cultural norms are different. But I've found it to be helpful in these situations and generally more inclusive and respectful.

@altruisticflower9627

7 ай бұрын

@@Well_Earned_Siesta As a nonbinary person, I still disagree with the idea that “they” is dehumanizing. I agree that neopronouns like “ze” are kinder, to people who prefer them.

i was a little thrown off by the title, but i’m very glad i took the time to watch this! i appreciated your acknowledgment of neopronouns since there isn’t much representation of them outside of “weird chronically online kids”. the reality is that not a lot of people use neopronouns, but when they do it’s important to respect them. somebody could use neos for a variety of reasons (they’re mostly used by the neurodivergent or multilingual communities), and it’s okay to ask about it as long as you’re genuinely trying to understand. the bottom line is that they’re still people and they still deserve to be treated as such, even if it’s confusing. as a neopronouns user myself, i really appreciate when somebody is willing to relearn their way of thinking! it takes some real dedication i also appreciate your “everybody deserves kindness and respect” mindset, i don’t see a whole lot of cishet men who are willing to learn and adapt like that. great video! keep it up!

@DrTheRich

4 ай бұрын

To be honest from the start, you and i have likely quite different world views, but this still makes me curious. I come from a very conservative background (not from US) and amongst them i'm considered very progressive, as dress in my own style, am bisexual and look at most things very openly, compared to my family. Yet when it comes to neo-prounouns, however I look at it, I can simply not find a way to mentally not see them as like having an imaginary friend. I have no intention of intentionally offending someone, so if someone using neopronouns approached me, i would try to use them out of curtesy, similarly to how I wouldn't want to upset a kid truly believing his imaginary friend is real. But the question in my mind is then always, why would you want me to pretend? If i look at myself, being a male with long hair. If someone was truly convinced i was a woman, i wouldn't want them to pretend to believe me to be a man. Dishonesty and fakery is more offensive to me than having a difference in believe. Whatever pronoun they believe applies to me is part of their believe system/culture/world view, and I don't feel i have the right to impose mine on them. i think we also differ in world view of believing what people deserve. I'm of the believe that no one deserves anything by default, not me not anyone. And that everything in life is either gifted or earned. If someone treats me with respect without knowing me, I see that as a gift, but I never demand them to respect me, without having earned that respect in someway. So I'm curious where your, likely, different world view than mine comes from, is it just that we were raised differently?

@k00ldino

4 ай бұрын

@@DrTheRich i also come from a conservative background, however, i AM from the states (and autistic, which may be the reason why i don’t really have a hard time understanding them) it’s okay if you don’t understand neopronouns, lots of people don’t, and i admire your willingness to respect them if someone were to ask you to use them. like i said, they’re used mostly by neurodivergent or otherwise gender nonconforming people to better express themselves. it’s like an art piece, in a way. they are also widely used within multilingual communities, but i suppose they wouldn’t exactly be considered “neopronouns” in a lot of cases. but, for example, somebody might use the pronoun(s) from their native tongue rather than using the english ones. otherwise, they’re just pronouns other than he/she/they. language is a social construct anyways, so i don’t really think it’s that big of a deal if somebody would rather be called xe or fae. but yeah. it’s just a different form of self expression. also, i wanted to thank you for taking the time to reach out and making the time to hear me out on this subject! that’s some real thoughtfulness :)

Excellent video! The current debate on preferred pronouns and possessive adjectives (his/her/their) is something which seems to be more linguistically relevant in the Anglosphere than in other languages. In Italian, personal pronouns are not the main indicators of gender. The pronoun is often omitted when it is in the nominative case and it is clear from context who we are talking about. E.g.: "Alex ha 28 anni. Insegna francese" (Alex is 28. [He/she] teaches French. It is not specified whether Alex is a man or a woman). The possessive adjective takes the grammatical gender of the object, NOT of the person who owns it. So, "la sua valigia" means "his/her suitcase"; "sua" is feminine because valigia is fem. "Il suo ombrello" means his/her umbrella, "suo" is masculine. On the other hand, all Italian nouns and adjectives have masculine and feminine desinences, so it would be impossible to talk at length about a person without disclosing his/her/their gender.

@adam_sporka

Жыл бұрын

In Czech, possessive pronouns are on a "gender matrix": You need to pick the right combination of the gender of the object and the gender of the owner. It is a challenge even for the native speakers. (Plus, there are 4 grammatical genders in Czech.)

@stefanieastrid

Жыл бұрын

@@adam_sporka same in German. If applied correctly, you will know both the gender of the possessor, as well as of the object in question, from the possessive pronouns/article. I like it, it seems more precise to me. Since most people use the pronoun you d expect for themselves, anyway, it works very well, overall. It's sth i don't love about Italian / Spanish, this increased ambiguity from the skipped pronouns. It sometimes seems a bit sloppy to me. Woke texts with an overabundance of singular use they/them just end up being confusing and way less precise, usually, where relatively often i lose track of who is being referred to, completely needlessly.

@patax144

Жыл бұрын

As a Spanish native speaker the problem comes with the gender suffixes, girls a, boys o, non-binary e, x or even @ used in adjectives. Possessives we have su, we don't care for the gender of object or subject. Pronouns are usually dropped anyway.

@patax144

Жыл бұрын

@@stefanieastrid I am learning German as a Spanish speaker and I can see what you mean we support ourselves on the verb for a lot of things, German is more precise in a lot of things by the use of other parts of the sentence.

@stefanieastrid

Жыл бұрын

@@patax144 the verbs aren't gendered in Spanish in any way though?

Filipino (or Tagalog) and almost all dialect in the Philippines are genderless languages. Pronouns do not have a classified gender. For example, the pronoun "siya" (he/she) or possesive pronoun "sa kanya" (his/hers) can be used to refer to anyone regardless of gender. The word "anak" (child) can also be used to refer to a son or daughter.

@kelvincook4246

Жыл бұрын

Thanks for pointing this out, I had a good friend from the Philippines who I thought was mixing up the English pronouns when he would call his daughter "he". It is amazing the me that when you learn other languages you learn that not every language handles the parts of speech the same way. And how the mistakes we make in languages that are not our native tongue come about.

@kinyacat5919

Жыл бұрын

yup

The reason, as to why the german word is neuter is actually quite interesting: In german (and many other languages) you can change the form of a noun to be cuter/smaller. For example a Brot (bread) becomes a Brötchen (bun/roll), wich would be a breadlet or breadling. The german word for girl (Mädchen) stems from the german word Magd (maid), which historically has been used to refer to women in general as well. This forming of the word always results in the neuter, which in some context even gets referred as male (for example the Sentences "Dort ist ein Mädchen. Sein Kleid ist schön" Which would be "There is a girl. 'His' dress is pretty).

In Japanese the word for "married couple" is "fufu" with each "fu" being a different Kanji, one for husband and one for wife. So the word for housewife and househusband are both "shufu" but with a different kanji for the "fu".

My favourite noun gender system comes from the Indigenous Australian language Yanyuwa, which has male (human), female (human), masculine, feminine, foods, trees and tree parts, abstract, body parts, and like 8 different noun classes for referring to people and family members. There's a different Australian language that has a noun class for dangerous things. Oh, and I also like the way Navajo has a hierarchy of nouns based on animacy, and that is reflected in the word order and postpositions used.

@colleenprinssen

Жыл бұрын

oh so there is a culture that will use "bird" as a pronoun when pertaining to people?

@LC-sc3en

Жыл бұрын

@@colleenprinssen according to Wikipedia there are 16 noun classes and when you say a noun you have to preface it with it's class. If English were like this with the preface ta for food nouns we would have Tabread and tachicken and Heoldman and sheoldwoman. They also have separate dialects depending on whether you are male or female and a specific form of speech used when talking to a relative who's father (if the relative is male) or mother (if the relative is female) has died. It fits the conversation despite not being about pronouns because it is a good example how languages can be constructed in vastly different ways and still function.

Hi! I use they/them pronouns. I never expect people to get it right 100% of the time, especially when I'm just serving customers at my job (though it is exhausting being constantly misgendered, I never mention it in the moment), but I do hope for respect. I try to present androgynously, but there's only so much I can do with very limited money, and most people come in with preconceived ideas of how certain genders should look. But every trans person I've interacted with understands we can't dictate what others say privately. We understand genuine slip up, and we hope others stand up for us in our absence, but we can't control others. Any joy I've seen/felt from others' confusion is literally just that they couldn't determine either man or woman at first glance, I imagine that's the case for most enby people and not the fact that they confuse people on purpose. We know it isn't always easy to adjust, but all I want is human respect andnot to be called slurs if possible. More than anything I'm just tired and want to be accepted as human if nothing else.

@DanielSilva-gc4xz

9 ай бұрын

Yeah, genders shoudn't look like anything. Because the only thing that distinguishes a man or a woman is their body and not the clothes they use, colour they like or how they behave.

@Pianovania

9 ай бұрын

@@DanielSilva-gc4xz Good thing I'm not either 👍🏻

@DanielSilva-gc4xz

9 ай бұрын

@@Pianovania yeah, according to society's construct of how a man should act, behave and what he should like, I'm not a man. I also don't have the "feeling like a man" feeling. I'm only a man because I was born with this body.

@lysanamcmillan7972

9 ай бұрын

@@DanielSilva-gc4xz Gender is actually between your ears, not between your legs. Your birth certificate says male because you were born with an outie. You're a man because you resonate to that concept on a level society doesn't talk about because it's too busy with surface noise.

@Pteromandias

7 ай бұрын

Sorry, you're not a "they/them." You're a specific, known individual.

I am a nonbinary linguistic anthropologist and they/them user. I love how you explained everything! This is a difficult conversation to have and it gets SO oversimplified. I love that you included the Individualistic - Collectivist spectrum. I think that many of us who want to be inclusive of and normalize trans people also aspire to be more collectivistic, but use arguments that skew more individualistic.

@Zodtheimmortal

7 ай бұрын

The human race has only two Biological sexes. Gender pronouns traditionally just indicated what kind of reproductive capability do you have, eggs or sperm. From there it gender categorizes how you can interact with them. For example a married man is not expected to be close friends with another woman, as his wife would probably get jealous and threatened. This is while the man can have male friends that do not threaten his wife. This largely is not going away, as it is part of monogamy which will always be the dominate behavior. By choosing gender neutral pronouns, do you think you are free of this scenario? Or does it actually make things worse? (Threatening the mans wife my having friends of either sex).

@kajsan760

6 ай бұрын

@@Zodtheimmortal Wow, I'm impressed by how many things you got wrong! Biological sex is determined by more than if you have sperm or eggs. Like chromosomes and hormones and such. Those things don't always line up. Have you for example heard of intersex people? My husband has many close female friends and I have many close male friends. It's not threatening at all, because we trust each other. Why would I marry someone I didn't trust? And what does any of this have to do with what @t-shades7148 writes? Are you against them identifying as a nonbinary gender because you think there's only two biological sexes? Didn't you listen to the video? Gender and sex are two different things. And what does jealousy between a husband and wife got to do with anything? Do you think a nonbinary person couldn't befriend anyone because their spouse would get jealous? Or maybe nonbinary people could befriend both men and women since they're neither themselves?

I love how the overall summation is that there is no issue with treating people with respect, yet pronouns are not the end solution to the problem. This is a basic argument that I have with people that spend their efforts about getting me to tell them my pronouns and how important they are. Like you cover someone that wants to disrespect will do so in other ways and (beyond my initial thoughts on the matter) your third party conversations may show disrespect for your audience.

Omg yes, people really do oversell how “easy” learning to use gender pronouns naturally can be. Like I don’t want to call you something that makes you uncomfortable either but it took me years to not use he and she interchangeably even tho I was fluent in every other dimension of English because my mother tongue is Cantonese and we don’t have gendered pronouns period. We use the same word 佢 for everything, be you a man or a woman or a table. A lot of my friends and family till this day haven’t gotten the he and she thing down either. The insistence that pronouns can be learnt easily just seems incredibly English-centric.

Thank you. For being brave and making this, but mostly for giving a well-educated and thought-out explanation of a difficult issue. This is the kind of discourse that makes us all better.

As a fellow UPenn grad, I am so proud to have found such an intelligent humorous handsome alumnus 😂

3:16 something i find SUPER interesting is i have known people to use bro genuinely like a pronoun for things/people. Like a friend that might say “bro think they a mathematician” after i say something nerdy. This obviously doesnt make bro exclusively a pronoun but…. I mean its cool as all get out to me anyway

@myeswright4214

8 ай бұрын

They’re

As a trans person, this really wasn't spicy as all. Genuinely a very good video & pretty enlightening. Thanks for making it!

@corinneskitchen

9 ай бұрын

Well your community is known for being unreasonable and mad about reality.

@msteerie

9 ай бұрын

@@corinneskitchen ?? Sure dude. If you want to talk about "unreasonable" then look at this videos comment section. 90% of the comments from trans or trans supportive people are all positive or constructive & 90% of the comments from transphobes are all dismissing the video before they got 2 seconds in or saying dumb catchphrases like YWNBAW. If you want to talk "mad about reality" you should really pick up a book. Most modern studies affirm trans people & if you dismiss them because they're modern then please stop taking all your medicine. You see the world as black & white when theres 1000 colors & shades of gray so of course you're going to be wrong.

@ItsAsparageese

9 ай бұрын

@@corinneskitchen What a fcked up, unreasonable, mad-about-reality (or more accurately your dishonest narrative about reality) reply, for absolutely zero reason

@Blueberry_Koi

9 ай бұрын

@@corinneskitchen have you actually talked to a trans person irl or are you just like... guided by the internet discourse

@corinneskitchen

9 ай бұрын

@@Blueberry_Koi I am a detransitioner and had many trans friends. Have you ever actually talked to a detransitioner or even listened to any?

As a trans woman, my general rules of thumb have been: -when referring to a stranger, I generally default to what they seem to present as--whether that's masculine, feminine, or androgynous/non-conforming. If I get acquainted with a non-conforming-seeming person, I like to ask what they want me to call them by because I want them to feel comfortable/safe with me. -when strangers refer to me, I generally don't correct them. I get misgendered often over the phone, but oftentimes I'm never going to speak to that person again, they don't have any reason to know better or come to know better, so it's not worth the trouble for me. If I get acquainted or expect to become acquainted, I'll inform them of my pronouns. If they don't respect them, I deem them unworthy of my company, but that's been very rare.

@trussell5084

8 ай бұрын

Same. I work in a place that I am using the phone a lot. I generally don’t bother trying to fix assumptions of those I’ll not have to see again. It’s my coworkers that refer to me as the wrong gender that frustrates me.

@theunholybanana4745

7 ай бұрын

@@trussell5084 what gender are you?

@brunnomenxa

7 ай бұрын

As I said in my main comment, in my main language (Brazilian Portuguese), we have genders for absolutely all nouns. I see this pronoun fight as unnecessary because "a person", in my language for example, is feminine, but it doesn't offend any men because you use a feminine pronoun or noun to describe both a man and a woman. Pronouns as they are, arose because of the natural development of a language, and there have been efforts to create neutral languages, but they usually fail because the reasons are completely irrational and subjective. This arrived in Brazil and is affecting everyone because mostly emotionally sensitive people think they need to change the grammar of the language to speak to people without offending them. My tip is, don't be offended by a word if the intention is not to offend you. If the goal is to offend, there is no reason to use cute pronouns in place of insults. This is too much effort for a waste of time.

@andiiiiiiiiiii

7 ай бұрын

​​@@brunnomenxathere are languages that are already, naturally neutral. for example, in my dad's native language, Swahili, there are no gendered pronouns, and most nouns do not imply what a person's gender/sex is. You can have a whole conversation about someone without ever implying what their gender is. There are 9 noun classes, but it works very differently from the 2 grammatical genders in romance languages.

@brunnomenxa

7 ай бұрын

@@andiiiiiiiiiii, Yes indeed. My point is that non-gender neutral languages don't need to change grammar to satisfy specific people, because the language naturally developed that way. In my language there are words that change meaning with gender. For example: "a caixa" (fem.) means "the box", but "o caixa" (masc.) means "the cashier". Trying to change this is basically killing a language and building an artificial one for an empty cause.

This is the most fair and balanced video on this topic that I've seen. Although I don't agree on every single thing that was said, I do agree with most of it. I'm only fluent in English but when I started to study other languages a few years ago, I did have the realization that not all languages have sex specific pro-nouns. I won't go into my personal beliefs or stances on the cultural civil war we're having in the west, but I do want to give appreciation to you for focusing on explaining the misunderstandings of the issue without actually taking a personal stance. Cold hard facts. A real breath of fresh air.

The Scottish Gaelic word for "woman" (boirionnach) is a masculine word and therefore takes a masculine adjective.

In Italian, the formal version of "you" is lei, which is also the third-person feminine pronoun. So when you're being polite, you're sort of referring to everyone as "she".

@palofrasca1775

Жыл бұрын

That's because it is a reference to "highness", "lordship" and other feminine nouns. You still inflect everything in the masculine gender when referring formally to a man (e.g., Lei è andato), and only use it as a second person pronoun. Pardon me if I was pedantic.

@MichaelPhillipsatGreyOwlStudio

Жыл бұрын

@@palofrasca1775 Yes, I seem to recall Sua Maestà is used as the equivalent of "Your Majesty", when addressing royalty, even if male. So, it's kind of like saying, "his/her majesty", even though he's right in front of you. I'm sure it's completely natural for a native speaker though. I've only been studying Italian for about 8 months.

@palofrasca1775

Жыл бұрын

@@MichaelPhillipsatGreyOwlStudio Correct! In Italian one could also say Vostra Maestà "your (plural) majesty", that's why "voi" (you plural) can also be used in formal speech. Though I'd argue it's quite rare nowadays. A lot of formal pronouns are born from the necessity of indirectly addressing a person's actions, out of respect. This is very evident in Japanese, for example. Once this sense of indirectness is lost, those fromal pronouns become very impolite. For example, omae was once a formal way of addressing somebody, meaning literally "(the person) in front (of me)". Nowadays if you address somebody by omae you might end up into a fight. :P

@MichaelPhillipsatGreyOwlStudio

Жыл бұрын

@@palofrasca1775 Ah, so the "voi" makes it more similar to French, which is "vous" when being polite. That makes sense. I always wondered why the divergence happened between the languages. That's very interesting about omae. I hadn't heard that before.

This was a really interesting linguistic video, thank you! As an ally I absolutely agree that the asking for people's pronouns can be allyship taken too far -- especially when it becomes a demand. I've heard several trans people make the same argument as you about how it can accidentally out people when we are too aggressive with it. Instead of asking other people's pronouns, I've found it's better to simply share my own (she/her) with no expectation of that in return. It's simply an indicator to the other person of my views and that I'm a safe person to come out to, if they choose to do so. Another interesting point you made is about how gender is just one part of our identity, and for many people it's not an important part. As a cis woman who looks feminine the only times I've been misgendered are either clearly slips of the tongue or online where someone is making an incorrect assumption. It's honestly funny to me in those situations, it's never going to really bother me. But I can understand that if you are constantly being misgendered, maybe because you are trans, or because you don't look like what people expect a man/woman to look like, or just because other people think it's a funny way to insult you.....that's going to be much more painful. So even though for me personally misgendering isn't a big deal, I don't let that trick me into thinking that everyone else has the same experience.

@oinkerbob2

10 ай бұрын

>stop asking people their pronouns and share your own instead This right here is what I want. When someone outlines how they wish to be addressed in this manner, it marks them in my mind as a safe person and encourages me to share rather than making me approach the conversation as an interrogation. That might not seem too huge for those who do align with the gender they were assigned, but this is huge for a lady in an unfriendly part of the US. As a more broad comment, I've never encountered this channel before now, and I clicked on this video while regrettably assuming this bearded man in a plain tshirt was going to disrespect my existence like many other bearded men in plain tshirts on the internet. What I heard instead was Dr. Jones separate the "issue" of gender diversity from the confusion surrounding pronoun usage. Many people in the US fail to do that for themselves, either because mainstream media conflates the two or they're simply unwilling to admit their true biases. That's why I'm glad Dr. Jones made this video, and I'll be sharing it with my parents soon.

As a trans woman, my approach to the last point you made is usually - either lead with the explanation of “you probably know this person as he, I’m going to be calling them ‘she’ in this conversation because they just came out as trans and I’m adjusting to the new pronouns.” It might not be the most easily understood by this person, but it’s also the only way they’ll find out that there’s new information. If it’s someone who flatly *refuses* to use any pronouns other than the ones they think they ought to use for someone, I’m probably going to try to avoid talking to them because indicating a lack of respect for someone else’s choices means they’ll probably decline to respect me and mine as well, and that’s not who I want in my social environment

@NickRuedig

8 ай бұрын

This is what I was thinking when I heard that third point as well. You can respect the current audience by explaining what you're doing, and respect the other person not present by using their self identification.

@Pteromandias

7 ай бұрын

Well, I don't have much respect for people who tell lies and demand that I participate in the lie.

@nigeladams8321

7 ай бұрын

​@@Pteromandiasno one's making you participate in a lie by using the pronouns someone goes by. Do you have anything of actual value to say or are you just here to stir shit

@doublejoywilson

7 ай бұрын

I just wrote a lengthy comment basically saying this as well. I don't view it as necessary to abandon someone's pronouns just because it might be confusing when you could literally just explain whatever is confusing to the other person instead, assuming they're acting in good faith.

@Pteromandias

7 ай бұрын

@@doublejoywilson That's the problem. None of this is in good faith.

If we just called everyone "Oi! You!" we'd be having none of this nonsense.

Good video. I get aggravated with a call-in show I watch on occasion where the hosts ask each caller their pronouns. If a caller refuses to provide them, the hosts start grilling them over why they refused it instead of just focusing on the question the caller wants to ask which has nothing to do with pronouns, gender, etc.

@firenzeval

Жыл бұрын

Why would it be so hard for the caller to say? I agree it would be annoying for the host to keep going on about it though.

@bayrum9803

Жыл бұрын

@@firenzeval Personally, I resent having words forced into my mouth - especially in deference to a sociopolitical movement I regard as toxic (gender radicalism, which IS NOT to be confused with LGBT). My pronouns can be inferred by my name, appearance and the sound of my voice. Trying to force them out of me is a control game, which is what I consider nonstandard pronouns to be in general.

@christopherjohnson9167

Жыл бұрын

@@bayrum9803 exactly its all about control. Accept my ultra progressive view point or you are a heathen. Functioning like a religious purity test.

@CreativelyJake

Жыл бұрын

@@bayrum9803 I'm curious as to what parts of gender radicalism you regard as toxic. I'm... not super well versed, this isn't meant to be provocative or anything. I just wanna learn some more perspectives where I can

@bayrum9803

Жыл бұрын

@@CreativelyJake I have to run to work, so I wish I could give you a better answer than the one I'm about to, but gender radicalism mimics LGBT rights when it's really more like queer supremacy. It came out of the colleges circa 2010s. It's based on an IDEOLOGICAL definition of the word "gender" that is in stark opposition to fact - which is meant to destabilize people sexually, and it does. Right now that ideology is being imprinted on children, much to their detriment - children are being encouraged to question their sexual identites before they have been allowed to naturally develop one, women's identities and spaces are being co-opted by biological men and LGBT identity has been hijacked to support all of this - the abuse of women and children by radicl leftist ideologues. A lot of the rights that are being demanded in the name of LGBT people ARE NOT RIGHTS. I'm gay and I abhor what's being said and done in my name. A hard distinction needs to be drawn between LGBT and Q+ because a lot of us don't support this degenerate insanity.

Nuance, Intention, Consent, and Empathy are how I try to approach everything. And yes I made it a cute little acronym for y'all. If a word interferes with a person's life and they express that to me, it's out of my lexicon for that person. The learning curve is a worthy sacrifice for me! _There's a period of grace for well-intentioned people during adjustment periods._ If my friend Katherine wants to be called Katie now, it will take a minute, but I'll do my dangedest to learn.

@SkullsNPockyLuv

Жыл бұрын

This is how I try to do it. I'm honestly shocked and pleasantly surprised that someone mentioned intention at all. It seems like lately people are more interested in arguing than considering the possibility that someone who disagrees with you simply sees things differently from you and doesn't mean any harm. You just keep being you.

@ommeloise6309

Жыл бұрын

What if someone asks you to refrain from using “cis?” Luckily, the prefix can be easily removed without altering the meaning of the word, at least in regard to cismen or ciswomen, (which has now been expanded to cismale & cisfemale). However, when it comes to respect, feelings, or empathy, it’s usually one-sided. Those who demand respect very rarely extends it to others.

@actualgoblin

Жыл бұрын

@@ommeloise6309 A lot of trans people would rather not be called "trans" but we still do it anyway. I don't see how it's one-sided. Maybe this is a big city/blue state issue I'll never be able to wrap my head around??

@yesterdaydream

Жыл бұрын

@@ommeloise6309 If someone asked me in good faith not to describe them that way, I would absolutely abide! However, most people don't request that because 1) like you mentioned, "cis" is the implied default and is usually only used when specifying that someone is NOT cis; 2) "cis" and "trans" are considered neutral descriptors, like tall, short, fat, thin, blonde, bald, human, or two-legged. Maybe you don't like being called fat, so you might use other terms like chunky/obese/marshmallow bouncy house. We work around the words out of respect to individuals (in the event they even need describing). But none of these adjectives are inherently negative beyond what stigma is around at the time. It's not like calling someone spiteful or violent or even loyal or saintly. Just neutral adjectivity. So, even if you're hairless and don't want to be described as bald, I'll respect that, even though I probably wasn't focused on your hair count in the first place. 💇‍♀💇‍♂💇👱‍♂ Also, I'm sorry you've encountered so many people to whom you've shown respect but didn't feel it back. That's absolutely irritating! My hope for you is that when you encounter this, you continue to be the bigger (read: marshmallow bouncy house) person and keep being respectful anyway. I truly respect your respect thus far and appreciate you reading my blahblahs.🤎

@fwestah

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How is cis disrespectful?

In Italian we don't have a neutral pronoun, and verbs, nouns and adjectives usually give indication of the gender of the person/object they refer to (almost every object has a genre too). I don't personally know any italian speaker who uses non-binary pronouns, but I once heard from a video that they would use the feminine form because "persona" (person) in italian has a feminine genre. The other problem is that most of the nouns or adjectives indicate the genre with the final vowel, so it is becoming more common in written communication to large groups of people to use a * instead of the final letter. As far as i know this is a linguistical mistake, because in Italian the masculine version used in collective way has a neutral meaning, and as a girl i've never felt left out in those occasions. (This stands also for usually male terms, like "men" or "brothers"). We use the feminine plural only if everybody in the group is female. The result is that if you need to read one of those documents out loud you either use masculine anyway, or you have to produce a sound that doesn't exist at all in Italian (something like the vocalic 'r' sound used in some English accents).

I'm ignoring this entire debate and get back to business as usual. But this was a informative video.