@ealpcc nailed it. (1) Never worry about taking short pulls or immediately sliding off. Never get on the front and “fade” (2) never stress about surfing the back - just learn to surf the back without messing up the rotation - slide off the last wheel and over to the rider who is dropping back just before they arrive. Sit on outside a bit so they aren’t confused. As they look back to see where they are going to slot in, already be out of their way. (3) yep, looping the back of a single file paceline is one of the hardest and most painful thing in racing and fast group rides. (4) if you’re in the middle of the line and you want out, ideally you can put in one more dig and pull forward, over, and out of the line - and “pulling” the rider behind you up and not leave them to close down the hole. If you just fade, or leave holes, they’ll remember you in a way you don’t want. (5) Always be watching 4-5 riders in front of you - you will see their accelerations, digs, jump before it hits you and you can already be adjusting and preparing for it. (6) you’re doing exactly what the right things to learn to do this and to get the fitness to hang on. Best of all, you’re self aware and making the effort.

Firstly, great & honest vids, keep’em coming 🤘 2nd, the fact you continue to show up is more than 98% of dropped riders do, only that way you will eventually hang on. 3rdly, another option to consider (as long as you pre-agree with the group) “surf” the back of the group. Surfing means you are at the back, but i/o leaving a gap for the rotating rider, you move right (if rotating cw) and grab his/her wheel so that he/she slots-in without needing to worry about the back surfer. The first couple turns shout “clear” or “go go” so the group (and u) get comfy with this. If you manage to hang on the distance (you won’t… not the first time anyway…) then start taking go pulls at the latter end, or even before the hill - to help the group (give back) before the climb. You may find that you’re “learning group speed” quicker that way and staying on for longer. Just a thought.. Either way, enjoying your content thanks🤘

@thewattlife

2 ай бұрын

Im going to give this a go, especially the idea of 'surfing' the rider moving back so hes clearly aware that the wheel in front of me is free for him.

@davidkennett2372

2 ай бұрын

Also save energy if you find one of the weaker riders in the group and sit on them, following the stronger riders gives you less recovery time. As already said, keep turning up and learning, will lead to better handling skills and strength. Great vid

I’m a newbie to cycling and this “fight night” series has been very informative for me. I’m so glad I found your channel when I did. Thanks! Keep pedaling!

Well done Max. Another great video; well shot and excellent content. You must keep trying with the fast group; it's to your credit that you don't want to hold them up but you're not doing that anyway. I'm sure you're fit enough to stay with them if you can just find a way to eliminate the power surges and thats just technique. As you say though you don't get much time to get the technique honed when it's a once a week event but when you do you will be smashing it. Keep the content coming, its up there with he best I see.

@thewattlife

2 ай бұрын

Luckily i have a 110km ultra race in Tenerife this weekend so next week i have a reason to ride in the middle group but will head back to the fast boys after that

Really enjoying these frequent uploads Max! I used to work at Eton college years ago and live in Bucks so it's great to see the local roads being put to good use. I must get back on a bike soon, been years!

@thewattlife

2 ай бұрын

Then youll probably enjoy knowing that i saw a teacher telling off one of the pupils for riding the curb on his bike at the traffic lights across from the chapple because they were red. Made me laugh on my way home. Honestly love living around here.

Tip: make sure the guy behind you in the rotation isn't the strongest in the pace line. Otherwise you'll be trying to get back in position at the back after your turn when he is hammering it on the front. In Team time trials teams used to sometimes drop an unpopular teammate by letting him hang on the front too long and then jacking up the speed right after his turn, meaning he has to make a massive effort to get back on. Do this a few times and he is dropped.

Your doing really well mate wow don’t think I’d be able to stay on those boys are quick.. 😊🚴🏻👍💪 great vid.. Pete

@thewattlife

2 ай бұрын

Thanks Pete

Are you comfortable at a cadence of 105? I'm my group tractor, and run either 52 or 53. The only reason I don't run bigger is that I don't want to swap cranks when I do steep rides. I'd be extremely uncomfortable holding speed at that cadence. But if I'm at 85, I can motor through comfortably. It's rider specific, but running a larger ring is literally free speed for me, I tested it.

awesome discovery, I regularly ride locally in the vicinity of windsor, maidenhead etc. (albeit not quite that fast). great video.

@thewattlife

2 ай бұрын

Cheers man, come down one Tuesday night

@olivertuite6440

2 ай бұрын

@@thewattlife what are the timings?

@thewattlife

2 ай бұрын

Tuesday 7pm. Get there a bit early. Find the Berkshire Gregarios on Strava

I have similar issue that you explained... pulling, trying to jump in at the back and missing it with 700W on the pedals. 🥵

Max, that's a tough crowd and probably not my thing for many reasons. With regard to the the over-watting on the drift back consider that the only 3 forces against you are gravity, rolling resistance and drag. Since you suffer the problem a lot, I suspect it is the drag issue. Can't tell in the video exactly what you do but a lot of people literally sit up when their pull is done.. consider pulling off and holding as much an aero position as possible, almost like drafting downhilll. Drag against the wind is a square law to speed, so at 30mph its is over double that of 20mph, so any increase in frontal area will scrub several miles per hour almost instantly.

@thewattlife

2 ай бұрын

Yeah perhaps- would make sense because I’m usually pretty ballsed after a tough effort. Maybe I am sitting up and paying less attention to keeping my elbows bent and chest down. God there’s a lot to think about

@1carusjohn32

2 ай бұрын

@@thewattlife Just riding zwift TTTs in B cat, unless specifically trained for it, I have massive issues staying with the group for 45 mins or so. The power average for my team through all the positions works out about my ftp for me, so it is a total max effort. I can only handle 30s pulls at 320-350w. The more powerful riders pull for a minute. I simple call toast before I get there to stay in the pack to help make up numbers . Sometimes I can recover and get back on the front. Even in zwift there is an effort to catch the back of the line. Takes me several weeks to get to the point where I can contribute a full set of pulls on the front. Not easy, and definitely harder with the technicality of actually riding it outside. I think you are learning fast and riding better than you think.

nice channel. Would be cool if you used also kph because miles well.. only you guys can get it. I'm at the same situation than you atm, i'm too slow in turns, round abouts, descents, I need to pull massive watts to get back in a wheel, that's so unecessary. I've done an ultra endurance event and lost maybe 150 positions in descents, got dropped of groups because of it. If the group is too fast for you I think you just tell them you're going to sit last wheel for a bit at the start and see how it goes, eventually take pulls later on, they should understand your situation, this way you can last longer and get more out of these rides

Loving the regular vids !

@thewattlife

2 ай бұрын

Cheers man

Great video. Please keep these type of videos coming! We are also learning through your videos and experiences :) What do you use to record power output (watts)? Also, how do you display it as you did in this video?

@thewattlife

2 ай бұрын

So i run a Sram Force group set with a Quark PowerMeter. This going into my head unit and after the ride i use the exported GPX file from Strava and put it into the Garmin Virb software. Its a super old program when garmin first started making video camera and then they stopped making camera but you can still download and use the software. It lets you show all the data and its all free

Maintain the power/cadence through the soft turns (like the first one). It's wide enough to pedal through. Oh, and try to stay on the outside of the front riders wheel, it is also significantly easier to stay close to the wheel all way through the corner. Takes a bit of practice, but you'll get it down easily with your commitment

Always best not to ride in to oncoming traffic, makes for a slightly longer lifespan. I don't think you did anything wrong there. As to knowing when to pull out of the line, if you're hanging out of your arse in the line and can't keep up, as soon as the wheel goes, move out. See if you can join the group but agree to do every other turn or just sit in until you can do a turn or two, most groups won't mind.

@thewattlife

2 ай бұрын

Yeah this is a great point- if i had moved out wayyyyy sooner, when i realised straight away, i probably would have been in a better position to try hold the back of the group and the guy closing the wheel would have less work to do. I like the sound of this

Hi Max, could you do a video on your equipment and clothing?

@thewattlife

2 ай бұрын

Sure man, coming up soon

When you're at the front, the riders behind you help you reduce the drag that's caused by the empty space you create behind. That might be one of the reasons you're faster at the front with less watts then when you pulled to the side.

@thewattlife

2 ай бұрын

Ah it’s like the NASCAR effect then

@OriginalRoadWarrior

2 ай бұрын

Exactly what I was going to post. That's one of the reasons why it's hard to attach back on to the paceline on each loop.

How long are these rides? - 30 mins of guys smashing it as hard as they can or 1hr+? You are more suited to endurance no?

@thewattlife

2 ай бұрын

They are about an hour, I think it’s just that the pace is right on my threshold so only a few seconds/mins over and it turns me to toast, not much margin for error

What happened with the crash in the middle group?

@thewattlife

2 ай бұрын

I forgot to go into this. One of the guys hit a pop hole and flatted, the slow down from the flat sent the two rides behind him into his back wheel. No one injured but some broken carbon

Its ok to do either a really short turn or to actually pull off after the lead rider for your first turn under those circumstances. The lead rider should look after the rest of the group through a turn like that. You also need to remember the rider that you need to catch when you are dropping back and start to accelerate as you see that person beside you so you can drop onto the wheel rather than chase it back.

@leechysbunny

2 ай бұрын

You should be aiming to spend as little time in the wind as possible so you drop right off the watts when you have completed your turn and you should only really apply power as you are reaching the back of the group so that you can put power down to "catch" the last wheel rather than to chase the wheel.

@neilferguson5940

2 ай бұрын

Sounds like there's been no ride plan with the group, before setting off and worrying to much about being dropped and messing up their ride. Ex racer.

@thewattlife

2 ай бұрын

The fast group is a tough group and to make things more interesting its called Fight Night for a reason. There is one point where riders will attack the group if its too big. Its just cyclists having fun

As it’s your first time you should have drafted at the back and let the rest do the pulling. Once comfortable and know how everyone operates then start putting effort in at the front.

Take shorter pulls tuck in close to riders when dropping back 50cm away same when on wheel keep in really tight will still get some draft

@thewattlife

2 ай бұрын

I noticed some of the guys do travel to the back of the group but stay quite tight to the pace line- something again to practise as it seems like it will help

It’s because the rider behind you has kicked through after your turn.

My observation, Drafting and knowing the corse is essential to achieving this goal. The group riders the course 7 days a week for a few hours everyday? . It's Not your home turf and baby. My riding group what we call as "regroup ride". It means that we will stop at a certain check points to regroup. It doesn't matter whether you're a fast or slow. It's compulsory to stop and wait for others. Our motto "no one will be left behind". Our intention is to get as many cyclists as possible and enjoy the ride.

@funkytransport

2 ай бұрын

Not a chain gang though.. different kind of ride

@thewattlife

2 ай бұрын

We aren’t doing a group ride, this is more of a fast pace line where you can be attacked later on the route. Being dropped is almost part of the expectation

@qumeriqbal8337

2 ай бұрын

Also, even as someone who's reasonably capable on faster rides, I hate 'drop' ride culture. I fully appreciate wanting to hit a set speed/effort and if people fall off that shouldn't impact everyone else's experience, but we're not all climbers, and we're not all rapid on the flat.

Use 3sec power on your power meter as just using power is misleading

@thewattlife

2 ай бұрын

Honestly there is nothing worse than watching a wheel moving away from you very slowly knowing that you;ll never be able to reach it

think nick is speaking porkies

Never return to the slower group. First time to your channel, but i gather you're doing loops getting ready for crit racing? The first thing don't worry about getting dropped and don't worry about messing up the lads ride, they are strong riders, experienced and the one on the back should be able to read the signs and move forward to plug the gap straight away. If you lose the wheel just ease off recover, get yourself on the other side of the road and wait for the fast group coming back round, preferably near that hilly bit you mentioned and start to increase your speed hitting the hill from the front of the group, this should get you near the top whether they all pass you or not and you can slip in on the back of the group on the flatter section. If you get dropped again repeat, it will come together one weak and you'll be buzzing. Good luck.

@samyueru612

2 ай бұрын

Great advice

Never pull off on an incline/hill.

@thewattlife

2 ай бұрын

Why?

@pauldyerdyer2731

2 ай бұрын

@@thewattlife because you have to put more effort in to get on the back as you did and you won't get dropped.

@thewattlife

2 ай бұрын

I see

@pauldyerdyer2731

2 ай бұрын

@@thewattlife Great content though!

You haven't "ruined their ride" to me they ride it to purposefully drop people, nothing wrong with that, but not a chaingang experience I like. That left hander, lead rider swung out, but you're not on closed roads, and if you pushed 700watts in 2nd wheel the poor people on 8th and 9th wheel would be close to 1000 watts to stay on. Kicking out of corners or away from junctions just smashes groups apart. It's called fight night so all is fair. But don't judge your efforts too harshly, I bet only 5 or 6 finished together. Personally, I would rather have completed the course together 30 seconds slower, but I am different. If you're not one of the strongest riders in the group you are a passenger and it's a "monkey see,monkey do" game. Keep at it, or challenge them to a 100km run....😂

@flackwellian

2 ай бұрын

Spot on. Proper chaingangs start and finish together, have no surging, have good communication and a super smooth pace.

@mctaggm

2 ай бұрын

Nah… not sure the chap who does this video knows to keep the power on through the corner, in the first example the guy in front went wide to give himself a line he could take to still beputting power down throughout the whole turn meaning on the exit he’s going a load faster. This is an experience differential and not anyone trying to drop anyone.

@struancochrane753

2 ай бұрын

@mctaggm He does admit he is new to the chaingang, and lacks experience. Even so unless it's a race , if you are on the front and corner cleanly and don't back off, you put those behind you in trouble. It's a cheap shot, I sometimes use it to by some extra seconds recovery. As you say, keeping the power on through a corner is a skill, and takes practice.

@thewattlife

2 ай бұрын

His moving out definitely threw me a bit because I thought he might be pulling off just before the corner and in which case I misread the situation. I like the idea of getting them to do a 100km run though lol

Wouldn't thpse of you who could make it in front of the car do so and just wait for the others on the other side?

@thewattlife

2 ай бұрын

Yes- and partly why I said that I don’t think there’s really a right or wrong thing to do but I was just being safe, knowing that the car was travelling 45+mph. Was just a judgment call I guess. But saying car and then carrying on is mixed signals and in a big group I didn’t want to responsible for anything going wrong 😊

@sAmiZZle82

2 ай бұрын

@@thewattlife yeah fair play, just gotta be careful pulling up that quickly with 9 in a bunch. Might've been more decisive to still yell "look out - car" but still continue through. At the end of the day when crossing oncoming traffic no one behind you should expect to blindly follow the leader. Everyone should be checking it's clear themselves before crossing on through. That way you can keep the momentum yourself and the momentum of the bunch!