This is a really cool project. I love the fact that there’s a whole group of KZreadrs collectively attempting to build DIY rocket engines and stuff! Soon we’ll have the first completely KZreadr run space agency lol!

@ericlotze7724

2 жыл бұрын

Look up "Copenhagen Suborbitals" if you want to see something similar to that idea, it's really neat!

@growthoperatorsKA

Жыл бұрын

Look up bps space

@ezrarichardson279

Жыл бұрын

@@growthoperatorsKA That's who I am talking about in part when I said "a whole group"

@TheWorstBridger

Жыл бұрын

Me and afew friends are nearing the end of our SSTO research and we hope to have our test plane done in 2 years

Biggest thing to mention, is static pressure from a centrifugal pump is very different from pressure at flow.

I've seen a lot of comments on the turbine/impeller geometry already, but I think another equally important thing to improve is the shaft constraint. Using a single large bearing like that creates a lot of resistance, and a single deep groove ball bearing has angular play (by design) which makes keeping tip clearances tigh basically impossible. I design high speed shaft systems for my job so while I can't comment much on the blade geometry, I can say that using two much smaller bearings (I'd guess 4-6mm ID) spaced a short distance apart will provide much better angular constraint with mush less resistance. Deep groove ball bearings like that are pretty much always used in pairs to constrain an axis as each bearing constrains a point. You will need a steel shaft though, as a plastic one spinning at these speeds is unlikely to be stiff enough to avoid resonances. With that said though, it's still an amazing achievement to even make a functional turbopump and injector, nevermind to make it with 3d printing

You could pour a slurry of heat resistant ceramic into the bottle and then spin it at a high speed to so that centripetal force will coat the walls evenly. Or better yet just paint the outside of the bottle and let the Plastic burn away with use. Integza did this a few times with 3d Printed parts.

“The difference between mine and the real ones is that the real ones work” The most important thing to know when designing a pump is how” Immediately subscribed.

This is incredible! Way to go! Turbomachinery is hard when we do it for a full time job.

5:20 when your pump is so efficient you struggle to measure how efficient it is xD

- Was the hotdog tasty? - Is it safe testing the fire over a patch of grass like that LOL! - Amazing to see how a "relatively simple" injector made such a big difference!!

One thing that might be worth looking into, that would definitely make this way easier from the sealing and fluid dynamics POVs, is going with an electrically driven pump. Small BLDC motors are available with frankly terrifying power densities, and your pump isn't putting out that much hydraulic power (volumetric flow rate times pressure) anyways.

@abizkit94

2 жыл бұрын

Exactly what I wanted to recommend after watching this video. While improving the efficiency of the turbopump is certainly possible and should be done either way, using drone motors and maybe some VESC based programmable speed controller would at least be far easier to get working. However if the goal is to use the developed technique in a model rocket to actually fly it the weight considerations of using a motor with lipo and vesc come to mind.

How do you only have 28k subscribers?! This is some of the coolest and best presented engineering on KZread

@willhaney96

2 жыл бұрын

WOW! I didn't even notice! Geeeeze You better be on the Up in up because this is awesome.

@ywsx6489

2 жыл бұрын

KZread likes to promote junk that make people dumb so this channel has a long climb ahead.

@VerbenaIDK

2 жыл бұрын

he only has 28k because it's a niche of building amd 3d printing with a niche within a niche of making rockets, which is not for everyone

@willhaney96

2 жыл бұрын

@@VerbenaIDK lol explain smarter every day and integza

@VerbenaIDK

2 жыл бұрын

@@willhaney96 integza is same thing and pretty sure smarter everyday has a bunch of science in it, whoch not all people will br interested, idk about mehdi tho maybe because he almost kills himself every video, that man is lucky he's alive, he bamboozled death at the very least once

Regarding the hotdog grease :hotdogs contain quite a lot of sodium, which colours a flame bright orange when you light it on fire. Cool project. Subscribed.

@JakeMcIvor

2 жыл бұрын

Was searching through the comments to see if someone had already mentioned this.

perhaps try using both turbos in series making a multi-stage turbo

I'm competing at the Texas State Science and Engenering Fair next week. My project was a 3D printed alchohol and oxygen rocket. Iv had the Idea of 3D printing a rocket engine since my school won a 3D printer in a grant my freshman year. While researching I came across your channel. You've been a great inspiration in project and I just want to say thank you.

@FreshAsFxck

2 жыл бұрын

Well, how'd it go?

@fisher9413

2 жыл бұрын

@@FreshAsFxck didn't place, only top 3 in their category know what they placed but I was at least 27th in state (in my category) because thats all that was competing at state

I don't have much experience with turbo pumps myself. However, what I do know is that there seem to be a few optimization problems worth noting, and possibly writing home about. Fist, dependent on the direction of flow, several things are happening. The fluid must fit in a given volume generating pressure, subsequently transferring the force to the angled fins turning the impeller and thus collecting angular momentum. The reverse happens when external mechanical force is applied to the impeller. Something that stands out - "as I observe the functional impeller device", is that the flow of fluid usually travels around the toroidal casing of most turbo pumps I have witnessed. This process requires that the fluid be traveling at a minimum velocity around the casing to fill the volume, generating pressure. However, the impeller also requires a greater amount of energy to rotate than it would be able to provide as conserved mass. Several improvements I invasion for such a device include the following. { A slightly longer impeller that protrudes through the inlet/outlet. }-{ Slightly longer fins that provide a better energy collection ratio. (The space between the casing and the impeller.) }-{ Revising the angle and geometry of the fins to optimize for

The hotdog reminds me of the time that I was smoking a pork shoulder, and I accidentally spilled some of the fat drippings pan on the floor of the smoker. It was maybe 3-4 ounces. It was night time, and it burned so fast that it actually flash blinded me and I couldn't see. Grease and fat have a tremendous amount of embodied energy!

There is another type of turbopump that works slightly differently; instead of using the flow of oxidizer to move the fuel (or vice versa) directly, it runs the oxidizer (or fuel) around the walls of the rocket bell for cooling and then uses the expansion of the respective gas (due to having picked up heat) to drive the pump, which then extracts more fuel/oxidizer to feed the cycle.

@Thorgon-Cross

2 жыл бұрын

While you are completely correct a few engines do that it will not work here as that system needs very high heat to work.

there's tons and tons of literature around turbochargers used in vehicles. One thing that's important is that the turbine side is smaller than the impeller side in cars.

9:30 I would assume that the sausage is quite salty. Sodium ions create a really bright yellow/orange glow in flames and the color matches this.

IDK how practical it is to 3D print, but on high pressure steam turbines they use labyrinth seals to reduce friction. This is an alternating series of circular lands and grooves that mesh together with close tolerances, with each groove on the shaft meshing with a land on the stator and vice versa. This forces the fluid to zig-zag along a much longer path, and the path is designed to be long enough and tight enough that fluid friction stops it from leaking all the way down the path.

So glad I stumbled on this channel! Please keep the 3D printing and project videos coming!!!

I think you are the first KZreadr making DIY 3D printed centrifugal pumps that actually used the term "turbopump" correctly. So many people think that any centrifugal pump is a turbopump and completely neglect the fact that "turbo" means it is powered by a turbine. But you actually made an honest to god turbopump, turbine and all. Way to go man! This is so freaking cool!

that injector is genius!

Look at the way that actual car turbos run smoothly.

The only way that i could imagine to solve both the combustion chamber melting and reduce the backpressure into fuel line is to reduce the ratio between fuel and oxidizer until you get a workable combustion pressure. Another way to solve, at least, the pressure is to assembly several pumps in series to increase the fuel pressure. You could combine both methods to create a rich oxidizer mixture by feed parallels pressure air lines to run the pumps, witch would be assembly in series into the fuel line. Maybe you could use this air to cool the chamber by put a bottle inside another and run all of this air between thoes bottles or something like that. You are creative, you figure out how to do it.

For the impeller you can use a bigger diameter to increase static pressure, since the centripetal force will get higher. Then you might also need a bigger turbine to get more torque... You can also vary the amount of flow by making the insides of each lower, depending on what peak flow output you need for a perfect mixture. Use 4 thinner holes at the injector to get more surface and constrict the airflow with a better nozzle to get faster airflow and both together can improve the mistification process much more effective. Maybe even give the nozzles a shallower angle to get the mistification startet earlier. And the bright orange flame is indicative of sodium 👌 This was a pretty great video to watch to be honest

Hehe, I was just watching your throttled solid rocket motor video and thinking it would be neat if you made a turbo pump system. I then looked down and saw this.

Use check valve in fuel line to avoid backward flow of fuel

Your projects continue to entertain me, excited to see all these concepts put together!

really appreciate the effort yo put into these videos, i must say the way you explain whatever you are explaining is very intuitive and fun. keep up the great work!!

I don't think the pressure in the chamber will send stuff back up the fuel line. Because if the pressure gets too high, your fuel coming out will be reduced and it will be a feedback loop that will never allow it to go backwards. If you're very concerned, try a check valve?

It will help to start with eulers turbomachinery equation on the turbine and pump to get a very rough idea of what diameters you will need for an operating rpm that won't break the printed plastic but might hit your pressure requirements. Then simple velocity triangles at the inlets will help get the blade angles close-ish. Your first pass worked really well though on the first try though!

Me everytime I introduce my "revolutionary" college project to the judge: 0:07

So impressive! I love how you used graphics and animations, they made it really easy to understand

you are interested in applying a check valve in your fuel line between the turbo and combustion chamber.

Love the design! As for the combustion chamber, you could maybe 3dprint it with thicker ablative walls (abs also makes a good fuel if you're not afraid of the fumes) and/or cooling channels to route air and fuel through? It would free you from the limitations of the 2L plastic bottle while still remaining a plastic rocket engine.

I'd think about a staged turbo set up with an identical one downstream and run the Air into it first then up to the 1st turbo from the fuel side and then out to the combustion chamber so the higher pressure fuel has the highest pressure air.

Awesome project and results! You should look up "velocity triangle", it's a key feature for designing decent turbomachinery.

Dude, amazing design and video!

My intuition says the diameter should be bigger on the fuel side. I can't wait to see if that proves correct. Although I suspect this will also have to be multistage.

Very cool. Fun project and I love all the helpful comments here. I think youtube recommended this because I'm interested in 3d printers. Awesome to see what you're able to do with one.

Seen a few Tesla valves printed off, along side two different size pipes for fuel and air might solve your back flow issue.

This is some great stuff! Before I say this, do know this is the first video I saw of you so this may already be out but a overpowered water pump that will shoot across a small lake

FYI, the other way you can check pressure is to have some air in the tube on the end of the fuel line and plug up the line. When it pressurizes the fuel will push up the tube and compress the air. Based on the air properties you can calculate how much pressure was required to compress the air that much.

Gosh I love this channel! Hope you'll get to 100k by the end of this year!

if i understand correctly the way to increase pressure on the fuel side of the turbo would involve either increasing the speed at which the air moves through the turbo or increasing the size of the air side of the turbo allowing for more airflow. in rocketry it's hard to get one turbo that properly feeds both the correct amount of air and the correct amount of fuel and so they have two turbos, one for fuel and one for oxidizer and each turbo pump runs off of a preburner that runs either oxidizer rich or fuel rich depending on what it's pumping. if you're serious about using turbopumps for your rockets you're probably going to want to borrow the idea of a preburner assembly. depending on the pressures of your rocket you could pipe the exhaust of the pumps into the burn chamber or i think what nasa and other rocket groups do is exhaust it to the bell assembly. godspeed fly safe!

You will get higher output pressure if the compressor impeller fins are perpendicular to the circumference, sweeping back lowers pressure but improves efficiency a little bit. You need tight tolerance with the housing to get high pressure too.

Loved the video mate. Can´t wait for the next one.

185 feet!!! That's one incredible small water pump. Dude you should make this into a 12 volt accessory if there is a way to get the air pressure to a reasonable level that a small tire inflation pump could handle. Then it's just an accessory you can buy to pump fuel or water. Super cool man!

Nice vid. The hotdog probably glows bright yellow because of all of the salt (sodium).

that is an awesome idea! I love it!

really cool watch! Had no idea the resin prints could do that!

could you try adding that roach killer that makes green flames when added to alcohol when you do the live fire tests. just think it would look cool. great vid keep em coming

You can try changing the size of the impeller and the compressor until you reach the right sizes

Awesome results!

Maybe more fins on the air side of the turbo whilst making sure as little as possible escapes around the fins. Much love

Amazing work as always!

try 3d printing a small regen cooled chamber with thin walls for great heat conductivity

I’m a little late to the party… buuuuut I’m taking a course about turbo machinery this semester. The exam is coming up and I’m looking for real world tasks to practice. So if you like, give me the specs you want and I’ll try to optimize/calculate the geometry… granted comments are not super good for information exchange, so some other means of communication would be great.

electric turbo pump, remove the input side dependency, easier to bootstrap, but you could do hybrid-solid NaClO3 - carbon hybrid drill cylinder rocket, two part, separated, gas-solid hybrid

Maybe make a high-flow one way valve? Maybe use a wuad copter motor to drive instead of air? Maybe get a flow simulation for the pumps?

try different size blades on the turbo. in a car turbo. the exhaust fan is bigger then the intake fan. which in your setup the exhaust fan will be your air line.

One idea that works is to hook the air compressor to a soda bottle than can withstand high pressure. Then you have a different hose which pumps the fuel out. Basically you pump 80psi air in which pushes fuel out of the bottle at 80psi. You will need another compressor, though ive tested this with cheap tyre air compressors and it works. Its the same principle as fuel pumps, which cause a high pressure in the fuel tank which forces the liquid out of the tank through a hose

Your forgetting the combustion ratio or fuel to air ratio for optimal combustion, propane is like 16-1 16 parts air, 1 part fuel, your air fan would have to be 16 times the size of the fuel pump for optimal combustion, and one way valves will solve the problem of air going back into the fuel line

you should get a check valve for the fuel side, but thats basically what an injector is, but could allow for the pressure to first build up, before opening up, and releasing your desired fuel pressure, and then no need to have to mess around optimizing turbo pump, and especially to after you said you have like 150ft of tubing to play with. You can get that punch with out having the length.

This is awesome! I’ve recently been hitting the books pretty hard on turbo and compressor design. We are also taking the same initial approach: make something that looks right and see where it’s actually wrong. Subbed and stoked to see what kind of mayhem results from this, hail MOTOR!

Without much diving into cad files I would think you need to adjust the AR ratio of the housings or possibly the housing shapes. I expect it's operating as a simple pump and not actually compressing much at all. If all you're getting is 20 psi, the geometry is off somewhere.

Wish you uploaded more often, your videos are dope!

Wow, this channel is was under-subbed. Solid quality content. Reminds me of a cross between Integza and Michael Reeves. But he’s much less vulgar, so I feel comfortable sharing his content.

5:23 you could try coiling the wire to increase length while reducing height.

@Sciencish

Жыл бұрын

The height is what is important, not the length of tubing, since we aren’t measuring any kind of volumetric flow or anything. All we care about is the pressure. We’re using the fact that pressure in a water column is P=pgh, h is total height not length, so it didn’t mater how contrived the tubing is, the pressure due to gravity(and in this test setup that is equal to static pressure of the pump) is only reliant on water height

@h7opolo

Жыл бұрын

thanks for letting me know my intuition failed me but your reasoning is sound. a coil would introduce more forces that should reduce the height, but only marginally. or perhaps my intuition is wrong again and those forces actually increase the height of water needed for desired pressure since those frictional forces counteract gravity, not to mention the additional pipe wall thickness displacing what would've been water.

The maximum prestige fuel side of the pump can produce is likely higher than the gauge read. If the pump’s flow is completely impinged like it was in your test, the impeller will “stall” for lack of better term. Pumps like that make maximum pressure when there is a balance between the restriction and the flow. The channel Indeterminate Design talked about this a little bit in his video on a two stage turbo.

i'm extremely surprised how well both the turbo and the nozzle work

Might be neat to make one with a pre-burner instead of using air pressure somehow.

Stop thinking of it as a turbo pump and start thinking of it as a gear ratio. If a symmetrical drive shaft (same impeller as propeller) shares your incoming pressure 4:1, then make the drive side have 2x the impedance. Then, your combustion air will be at half pressure and your combustion fuel will be at double pressure, and you'll be even. I don't know if that's actually how the math works, but maybe it's still useful.

@thefekete

2 жыл бұрын

Also of note, the flow will necessarily decrease with higher pressures.. so once you max out efficiency, you basically have a sliding scale of flow/pressure for a given input flow/pressure..

Great video!

so fun to see this stuff!

one way of improving it would be to use a steel-ceramic bearing and if it is sealed then to remove the seals and grease and lubricate it with some thin oil, to reduce the friction in the turbo pump

This is really cool.

Also, add a check valve to the fuel line, that should keep any back pressure out of the fuel supply

I think pressure you fuel reserve with the air, kinda like a blow through carb set up when turboing, you apply. Boost pressure to the float bowl

Amazing! Cutting the fuel supply while maintaining airpressure for a few seconds at the end of the burn might help to prevent the flame travelling back to the injector.

The easiest solution to the difference in pressures would be to make a drop in the pressure of the output of the air by puting a convergent divergent nozzle so the output air reaches 20psi and the fuel would get out also at 20psi

First video I whatch from your chanel... Loved It!

Another great video! I wish the frequency was a little higher, but it's nice having higher quality! Thanks

What about using two stages of turbo pumps connected in series to increase fuel pressure?

If you're happy using stored pressure in the oxidizer to pump the fuel / the pressure from the air is enough to overcome your chamber pressure, you can just use a venturi injector. it would also mix the fuel.

Every video you make takes me one step closer to buying a resin printer.

I haven't tried it yet, but I installed a FreeCAD plugin the other day for turbine blade design. If you also install OpenFoam you can do fluid dynamic simulations. If it is like the finite element analysis side of FreeCAD, it is actually pretty easy to do assuming directions. I was thinking a quick and dirty way to model pressure might be to treat it like hydraulics or pneumatics where the cross sectional area moving the fluid is the area of the piston. If it works at all I suspect it would be fairly inaccurate because of all the leakage, and other reasons. Maybe the best thing would be to keep the air motor constant sized, and print a larger pump. Take many measurements of the existing one and the new one and see if a pattern pops out when you graph stuff. When doing that sort of thing, I like to use prime numbers 3 or larger for sizes so you avoid stuff like 2+2=4 and 2*2=4 and 2^2=4. Anyway, try making your own empirical equation. And as a silly side note you might not have noticed yet, but water column height is a common unit of measurement in some fields so there are simple conversions for switching to psi, pascals and etcl. Sometimes it is inches of water, sometimes feet of "head" or just "head." While the static pressure is too large for it to be easy to use, it can be handy in other situations. Like you might want to find the pressure drop between two locations in a pipe or duct, kinda like voltage across a resistor.

Make the compressor side bigger then the turbine side. That should extract more energy out of the air at the cost of more back pressure / less air pressure after the turbo

One thing that would improve the efficiency of the turbo is to make the inlet and outlets tangent to the turbine. The turn it makes from going from tangent to radial causes a loss in energy

nice project!!!

You could try a tesla valve or some other type of one way valve on the fuel side to keep flashbacks from happening.

Love this stuff man! Send something to space in the next video

Nice vid man

7:42 yeah. Sure mate. I definely believe you. And I love that thing 😂

I love your video's keep it up man

I'd imagine the color of the flames coming off of the hot dog is from all the salt in there.

Alternate title: DIY 3D printed flamethrower

You could use something like starlite, nighthawkinlight talked about it, as an abative coating on the inside of the 2L bottle. The only issue would be needing to water it down and spin it until dry and that it'd be opaque, so you wouldn't be able to see inside it.

Larger impeller on the gas side and smaller impeller on the fuel side would allow you to utilize mechanical advantage similar to gear ratios albeit at a reduced fuel flow but higher pressure

You need a cricut for cutting those plastics more precisely! Also I'm sure your SO will use it a lot too