Oh man Im glad I landed here! Thank you algorithm, but mostly thank you Mr Lutter and Pounder Labs. This is the kind of stuff I ve been looking for when loading my Service Match 38s.

The detail of this presentation was incredible. A very scientific approach to the selection and application of ammunition.

@PounderLabs

3 жыл бұрын

Rusty Guy.... Thanks for the feedback. We know these videos are a little long but we want to give enough information for viewers to duplicate our results or, even better, build on them and create new projects!

wow this is great! I've been looking for this invaluable insight for decades! Thank you for doing all the work! ❤🙏😅

Absolutely love the level of detail. I’ll be referencing this for a while.

This is an excellent presentation. Great work.

Impressive presentation 👍

Very well done; So much information and very well presented. Thanks

Thank you for the work you did on this video, very interesting and informative

well any dream i ever had of reloading is now shot to hell

Great presentation Don! I really appreciate the scientific approach that you have taken. I have recreationally shot bullseye for 40+ years and never given much consideration to the impact cannelure has on accuracy. This is something that I might explore further in my reloading. However, what I found interesting is that I also shoot a S&W 52-2 and my 148 gn HBWC bullets also wobble sightly. My targets show rub marks along the edge of the hole just like the targets you have shown. Several others that shoot the same gun do not have that issue. It doesn't appear to affect accuracy but is unusual. Any thoughts on what causes this and its impact on accuracy?

Question. I have been reloading for 50 years, and early on, mostly .38 special. I have a question about the crimp process. If you crimp the case and bullet separately, won't the lead on the bullet below the crimp groove be sheared off and up into the groove as you seat the bullet? If not, will the case expand as the base of the bullet passes by its groove? Does the case expand as the bullet passes by and then retract back into the bullet groove when the bullet reaches its final depth? As a mechanical engineer I sometimes dive too deep into things. With the lead of swaged bullets being fairly soft I can't see how this method would work. However, the results speak for themselves, and are very impressive, and your research into this subject is second to none. But what is really going on inside that case? It would make more sense to me to crimp the case to the bullet after the round is loaded, in one operation.. How do the factory boys do it? Each component separately or as a unit? Can't wait to hear what you have found on this subject.

@PounderLabs

2 жыл бұрын

Al... Thank you for your question. Sorry for any confusion in the video but you are correct the process we use is: 1- Rolled the cannelure onto the bullet by itself first..the UCTII doesn't create any ridge on the bullet to interfere with seating, 2- Seat the bullet as normal, usually a small flare on the case mouth will help prevent any shaving of the bullet as it is seated, 3- We do a roll crimp, as a separate process step, to remove the flare and provide a nice rolled edge for the flush seated bullet, 4- Then we roll the case cannelure(s) on the loaded round lined it up with the cannelure(s) or we added to the bullet… locking the whole thing in. Thank you for your viewership and support… Don

@CompShooter54

2 жыл бұрын

@@PounderLabs Thanks Don, this is what I was hoping you would say, males perfect sense. Keep creating great and informative videos!

Thank you for this in depth video. May I ask what KM tool you are using at 07:50? I went to KM website and do not see this Case Trim gauge and flash hole conditioner combo. If I missed it, what length are you trimmer your cases to?

@PounderLabs

3 жыл бұрын

Hi Steve.... Thank you for your viewership and support. Maybe we should have stated this better but that tool was fabricated in-house and it's just using the K&M handle (which are very nice!). If you know someone handy with a small lathe it's not too hard to make one. For the Smith & Wesson Model 52 we shoot for trim lengths of 1.145 inch. Cheers!

Do you add the case cannelure before loading or after?

Thanks for this info. Great stuff! Any information you can produce to help Bullseye shooters increase improve the accuracy and consistency of their handloads, particularly 9MM and 45 ACP, would get a lot of attention. I.E., The use of some type of bullet adhesive vs. a case constriction cannelure to improve CEP; traditional cast & grease groove lube vs. Hi-Tek coated bullets, can Hi-Tek bullets be cannelured without failure of the coating. Just to throw out a few thoughts. Have you thought about using a barrel holding fixture for test firing to help eliminate any errors associated with the firearm itself? Remember that non-sponsored shooters handload for the economies associated with their volume of shooting; but still like to achieve "Federal factory" results. Thanks again.

@PounderLabs

3 жыл бұрын

Hi Cactus… Thanks for viewing and your feedback. Certainly, looks like we’re on the same page. For the 38 Special we’re working with a very nice 148gr HBWC from MP molds (www.mp-molds.com). It’s 0.640” length and we’re adding Hi-Tek and getting higher seating forces. For several reasons we’re moving away from naked lead but looking at other coatings. We’re working with Bear Creek Supply (www.bearcreeksupplybullets.com) and their extruded and proprietary coated 147gr for 9mm/38 Super and 200gr SWC 45 ACP. These are both without any grease groove so we’re able to add our cannelures without crinkling the finish which we find happens with Hi-Tek. To get around the Hi-Tek coating failure when adding cannelures, we first size, add cannelures, coat and then resize and we’re good to go. For R&D it’s okay but that’s too much handling for a practical application. You make an excellent suggestion. We will continue to use the Ransom Master Rest because it simulates closest to the real shooting experience but we would love to do testing on a universal tester. But unfortunately, it’s not in our budget at this time. Again, we agree with you and we recognize that broadening the participation in precision shooting we need to get costs down but still maintain the accuracy and precision for non-sponsored shooters to be competitive.

WRT the conclusion’s hypothesis that the Cannelure + Roll Crimp creates a more efficient combustion... would you also expect that to mean a better dispersion on that velocity? Clear that the velocity was affected, and also that the group size was better, but shouldn’t the SD/ES of the velocity also reflect the theory or is it possible that there is some other additional root cause for the group size to shrink? Since the velocity of the Cannelure + Roll Crimp is always the highest of any series, what if we just took the charge up on the plain load to the same speed and see if the group also shrinks? If the timing of the pressure pulse is the cause, it would be difficult to manipulate without a powder change.

@PounderLabs

3 жыл бұрын

Dino…. Sharp eye and good question. First a rhetorical question. How many of our loading references giving charge weights, velocities and chamber pressers have you seen that have any statements of precision much less accuracy? And we found very little that extended these analytics to hits on targets much less correlations between measurements such as hits on targets and velocity. In PounderLabs, our goal is to press into all this and it is work-in-progress and we want to share as we move along. When we started this work a couple years ago, we expected to see high correlation between velocity standard deviation and measure of variance in hits on targets. But for the most part, we really haven’t seen that. Several areas to be looking at: 1) measuring velocity with the LabRadar (Doppler chronograph) is a causal process. So, they fit a short-term regression of the velocity-time curve and back fit it to time zero… this itself is a statistical process and we go into it in our PounderDrag video 2) we started our work with SD, as it’s a well understood measurement, but we’ve started doing more with Standard Error of the Mean (SEM) to get better understanding of dispersions relative to our small sample sizes in shooting. 3) we have some additional unknown factors coming into play and will continue to look for these. 50-yards is the gold standard of measurement for evaluation in precision pistol so as we press on into that will take your recommendation to up velocities without cannelures.

@PounderLabs

3 жыл бұрын

Dino… WRT to your edit. We agree, the impulse function might be coming into play. We’re currently working with slower powders like Unique, Power Pistol, and Blue Dot in 9mm and 38 Super to better understand this factor… Great comment!

@dinoc.5537

3 жыл бұрын

Thanks for the work to begin with. I know how much effort this is for your own purposes, let alone to clean it all up and make it a presentation I see things the same, probably the reason I worked in a research environment my whole life. My wording on the velocity and charge was poor, since the speeds were already overlapped in several of the tests. What has me curious is if there really is an increase in pressure or some combustion effect at work, or if the crimp & Cannelure samples obdurate better and create a better “size” on the “skirt” similar to the short range issues with pellet guns versus slugs? Strain gages are a PIA in pistols compared to rifles but may be worth a look. I also see strange patterns of SD/ES versus accuracy and often wonder what I am missing. Thanks again for your efforts. Wishing you and yours a Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.

Extremely interesting results and great science. I would wonder whether the results could be replicated by using roll crimp, no cannelure, and a magnum primer.

@PounderLabs

3 жыл бұрын

Hi Mathias... Thank you for your viewership, support and good question. We find that the roll crimp really doesn't add much constriction but it does dress out the edge of the case and we think improves feeding a little better in the Smith & Wesson Model 52. We now have a new mould for the148 grain HBWC so we can further experiment with different lead hardnesses, coating/lubricants, as well as, adding cannelures. We think your notion of a magnum primer is to get a hotter flame and toast the propellant faster/better. This did occur to us and we're considering looking into it. The problem with magnum primers is sometimes there's more Sinoxid compound, other have magnesium metal powder for longer flame, but others it just a thicker cup over non-magnum. That is a lot of things to consider ;-) Cheers!

@muffinxcancer

3 жыл бұрын

@@PounderLabs Berry's makes a couple of Copper plated wadcutter designs. They might be worth testing. Good luck with your future endeavors :) .

@jamesclark6427

18 күн бұрын

Late reply. I've had terrible unexpected results from magnum primers sometimes. They really have very limited use. Pretty much just large charges of certain slow burning powders and black powder cartridge loads. I once substituted magnum primers for standard in a cast lead bullet load for .44 Magnum which was well below maximum and had always worked well because I ran out of standard and only had magnum on hand. In less than 18 rounds, bullets were tumbling at 50 feet. Looking in the barrel, I saw the rifling was so badly leaded the grooves were no longer visible! It was quite a chore to scrub and scrape the lead out later. Baffling results. Just from changing the primer. Of course you never know what will happen changing a loading component. But it can be downright bizarre and ruin a good load.

I have read that calibers such as 454Casull use dies that size the brass down farther than normal and do not expand it is much before bullet seating so the elasticity of the brass will have greater friction grab on the bullet. I wonder if this could be applied to .38 special to achieve tighter grip on the bullet and promote greater efficiency of the powder burn.

@PounderLabs

7 ай бұрын

billj... I think what you're suggesting in theory should work. Couple things to keep in mind. To oversize the 38 Special brass, i.e. significant increase the negative interference, may require custom dies. And since jacketed bullets are usually .357" you can probably muscle them in, but you probably will end up with a pretty significant Coke bottle affect. Lead bullets, and those with coatings like Hi-Tek, are usually sized to .358" and may be damaged in seating in the oversized brass. Since we normally don't anneal straight wall cases, working the brass this much may limit your number of reloads, which may or may not be an issue. ...Don

@jasonshults368

2 ай бұрын

My experience bears this out, Don, particularly with the softer lead used in swaged bullets. I used bullets cast from softer alloys. Bullet bases become deformed (singnificantly undersized) during the seating process. They don't shoot as well, and leading, even with very light loads, is apparent. I believe your canneluring method here is the appropriate solution to building consistent pressure without deforming bullets in a deleterious way.

I bought a set of rbcs die’s a 3 dies set they are marked Group B it’s a old set of die it’s in a cardboard box it has a WC on the box my question is are these dies made something special 357 and 38 ? Thanks nice video

@PounderLabs

2 жыл бұрын

Hi Brian… Thanks for your question. I haven't used these dies but offer my best guess based on experience and what I have check. This die set is for loading the 38 Special wadcutter (thus the WC) loads we are discussing in this video. There would be a full-length sizing die, a seating die design with a flat seating stem to match up with the flat meplat of the wadcutter (the stem might even seat the bullet slightly under the mouth of the case) and a roll crimp die designed for this particular application. Hope this helps, thanks for your support… Don

My brain hurts!!!

@BigATB

3 жыл бұрын

my brain hurt every time he referred to an thousandths measurement as "mil".

@aaronm8694

Жыл бұрын

@@BigATB thousand in Latin I think is 'mil'

Why not use the Speer swaged 148 grain HBWC?

@PounderLabs

3 жыл бұрын

Hi John... thank you for your viewership and question. The Speer HBWC is a good go to but the Hornady was more available, had a dimpled surface that held the dry lubricant and worked well for us adding cannelures. We now have a mould for the 148 grain HBWC so we can research out various lead alloy hardness and other lubricants/coatings like Hi-Tek. Exciting times, cheers!

@johngalt6929

3 жыл бұрын

@@PounderLabs - I remember using the Speer 148 grain HBWC back in the 70's along with 2.7 grains of Bullseye. Never used the case cannalure though. I do have old factory 148 grain brass that displays the case cannalure. IIRC, the Speer bullets did have a groove to accomadate a case cannalure. Worth a try if you find some?