Super interesting! As a graduate in renewable energy with a lot of passion for batteries and electric transportation, this is a great contribution to realistic data in this growing field of interest! Your explanation of how you have done things are great! True to the scientific method 👌

Very interesting test, and again you’re way ahead of traditional car media. Will follow these tests.

Be great to see a few Zoe's tested, looking at buying one as a 2nd car.

Dude, you can never say your wife degrades :)))

LoL! I will mention to my wife "Every wife degrades" and see what happens

@valtersvasilis

2 жыл бұрын

RIP you and Byørn... 😂

You have tested a lot of Kia Souls and VW E-golfs now. We need more classic Ioniqs to compare with please :D

The Kia I had for 2½ years showed significant degradation, that's why I traded it in for a Kona. When I sold it, it showed just under 80% SOH at roughly 95000 km. My Kona 39 kWh has now done more than that, still no sign of degradation. Set my daily charge at home to 80%.

@thomasmahnken

2 жыл бұрын

Interesting…was it the Old Model (27kwh) of the Newer one?

@ekhaat

2 жыл бұрын

@@thomasmahnken 27 kWh

@abenteuerelektrisch8977

2 жыл бұрын

I have the new 64kwh eSoul. Tested at 45k km with 4.5% Degradation. Now with 77k km still no difference in perception and will test after my trip to greece soon 👋

@thomasmahnken

2 жыл бұрын

@@abenteuerelektrisch8977 Yes, I remember: kzread.info/dash/bejne/c42Y0daDpMu5aKw.html Dank Dir für Deine Arbeit, hat mir bei der Kaufentscheidung fürs E-Auto gute Dienste geleistet (wurde n E-Niro).

The job man…..amazing👍 all the data from all those years really pays off👍👏 keep it up😃

Great video, thanks for doing these tests and thanks for telling people how you interpret the data!

ABC - Always be checking Björns videos.....

Re: the % the car saw vs the charger, remember that it's probably reporting 4.5% to 4.9%, and the two different displays may choose to read those numbers differently. The car might be rounding up, especially if it's towards the upper end, while the charger might just be converting to int and losing anything past the decimal.

danke Bjorn😁👍👍👍 finaly evs are within my budget..

2013 Smart ED, 110.000km, 22kW AC charger (charge usually 4-8kW), car sits at night always at 100%, 18% deg. using BMS-diag for reading data

It makes you wonder how well new cars will do in the future, especially those that charge at a constant high rate deep into the battery pack.

@chunkychuck

2 жыл бұрын

A lot better. They have water cooling and better chemistry and management.

Amazing series of videos. Thanks Bjorn! Could please do an ID3 58 Kw/h with high mileage battery degradation test please??

@bjornnyland

2 жыл бұрын

*58 kWh

The SOH starts at 110% on the 27kwh cars. That's how you have ~20% degradation while being 90% 🤪

omg did bjorn just say his wife degrades 😂

Great video. I think a better test will be to try the 2017-2019 Soul. These had improved battery chemistry and every one I've seen claim 100% SOH.

Hello Bjørn, nice Soul EV degradation series, I also have one that got a new battery in warranty from Kia in 2020, 100K Km, had huge degradation 30%+, I'd like to see the actual degradation with the OBD adapter I use with my TMS 85D, which app are you using for the Kia? Thanks and keep up the great work!!!

Nice test! Maybe you could add the temperature in the chart, because there are less kWh available in cold wheather. Or do you always heat up the battery before you start driving?

my 69000km 27kw 6 years kia soul ev regular AC charge 40% - 80% on average makes 86km using 37% with 11,2kw/h consumption @ 31km/h average speed, so I calculate around 26kw/h usable battery with a 5% degradation

ABC "Always Be Correct" That was a new one 😅

@bjornnyland

2 жыл бұрын

You must be new here ;)

I think I am that guy at 16:49... It looked awful in the start... and yet the same results continue to show up... You are right of course, it's too much work, and not really practical. If some of the cells in the first gen Souls do indeed see higher temperatures or whatever that causes them to fail early, maybe you will be able to see this with car scanner if it has a "Maximum Cell Voltage". This problem is somewhat clear on a Leaf where LeafSpy shows voltage of each of the 96 cell groups that I know you are also familiar with. 27kWh Soul battery has similar topology and it may be interesting to check out as the battery discharges. If for example the problem is specific, the same group(s) of cells may show more often than not. The first gen Soul seems to use batteries from SK-Innovation, the 28kWh Ioniq has batteries from LG.

Kia (or Kempower) probably uses different rounding for displaying SOC in car vs. SOC in charger. For example 4.7% can be 5% in car and 4% in charger (you can round up at 4.5 or 5). Screens show full numbers only, so we don't know.

Great video, keep it up. I will start communicating with my wife that she is degrading, she will love it 😂

Great tests! Can you do similar tests with the 30kw/h battery on the Kia Soul?

@peterjay9697

2 жыл бұрын

Yes would be good to compare the 27kw Vs 30kw to see comparisons. Maybe a comparison Vs the 30kw leaf 👍🏼

@youbencowell

2 жыл бұрын

I have a 4.5 year old 30kwh with 61k miles on the clock. I'll see if I can do this test before I trade it in for an EV6.

@Der-Raubfischer

2 жыл бұрын

The Kia Soul actually has the 30kw battery but you can only use practical 27kw.

@youbencowell

2 жыл бұрын

@@Der-Raubfischer it is available in two battery sizes!

@oliverskinner8962

2 жыл бұрын

@@youbencowell can it still do the range ? Our 2016 30kwh leaf Tekna is doing around 85 miles (down from around 105 miles new (well six months old)) with around 74,000 miles on the clock at the moment. What could it do when you first got it ?

@Bjorn 5:44 Why does it heat up? You can explain the heating up based on internal resistance. Different chemistries have different internal resistances, but assume 3% internal resistance when new, that means that out of 30 kwh battery during a whole discharge cycle, roughly 1 kwh is released as heat (which can be as much as a 5 degrees increase). When you charge that is even worse since the current collectors also generate heat which is proportional with the charging current. With time, internal resistance increases due to degradation that happens within cells which affects the efficiency of the charging and discharging cycle. A cell that went through 200-300 cycles will typically see a 40-80% increase in internal resistance. So a full discharge might now heat up with 1.5kwh equivalent energy. Very close to the end of the cell's usable life, the internal resistance can be 200-300% that of the initial internal resistance. NCM 111 cells (like the Sould here) have very high internal resistance over their lifetime and rather low cycle life. Newer cells like NCM 622, 712, 811 and LFP have lower initial internal resistance and lower increases due to degradation. You can use an analogy: similar to how an old engine (yes ICE) would consume more after 150.000 km due to larger internal friction caused by wear and tear, batteries also heat up more and are less efficient in time.

My wife degrates? OMG😮 Nobody told me before....

For cicles I would assume 100-0% just to have the worst case but lower number overall. Because cell also get rated always for full cicles and only sometimes for lighter ones.

Remember that the car consumes 300-400W for onboard electronics while charging (based on eNiro). That would be 0,15-0,2kWh for the half our charging session which would not have been put into the battery.

You’ll be sleeping on the couch if your wife hears your comments about wife degradation 😂

It would be interesting to see a test with a 64kWh Kona

Bjorn, another interesting result, but does the charging setup have the ability to set maximum charge level. If not this is likly abused by having charge level of 100% always, I have the same issue with my 2019, so I purchased a Juice Box WiFi charge controller that allows me to set to max charge level 80%, it does this by dialing in the car make and model, and the % at the start of the charge session and it adjusts the charging time.

My 2018 Kia Soul 30kWh show very little signs of degradation (measured, not SoH) but that's not saying much because (a) odometer only shows 30k due to Covid, (b) 99% of that was home charging, (c) I cycled between 30-70% for most of those 30k - all tips I've gotten from watching Bjorn's videos. Oh and I bought the car based on your review of the car. Looking forward to seeing some 30kWh tests in the future!

For counting cycles, you could use the "equivalent full cycle" definition. You take the (estimated?) total electricity used and divide by actual gross capacity (not useable) of the new battery before degradation. Of course, this does not reflect actual cycles at all, but at least it is standardized.

@velikdole9712

2 жыл бұрын

No, he uses the usable capacity. His method is correct.

Bjorn, can you test 30kWh Soul. I have heard of any of lots of degraration on 27kWh, but none in the 30kWh. I know of examples of 30kWh which still showed same range as new @ 80K miles. My previous car was a 30kWh and I would get a max of 158 miles in Summer and I know is more efficient than the 64kWh Soul that I own now.

Bjorn, the Soul you tested April 14/22, at 34% degradation was it eligible for warranty replacement? My 2016 Soul, purchased in Oct 2015, is still under warranty until Oct 2023. Here in Canada the warranty is 8-year, 160,000km on the drive train, with main battery eligible for replacement when the SOH drops under 70%. What’s the deal in Norway?

For cycles you could also use CED (cumulative energy discharged) from car scanner and divide it by net capacity, to see how well it fits to your model.

@bjornnyland

2 жыл бұрын

That number is not correct.

@EV_OBD

2 жыл бұрын

CED and CEC are reset to 0 during each BMS software update at the dealer.

@derMaulwuff

2 жыл бұрын

@@EV_OBD huh? Never heard that before. Also didnt happen for my car the last 3 years.

Please test the 30kwh version, I think that the results will be different

My wife began to degrade after the first kiss😂😂😂

i drive a 2019 leaf how his the degradation i usually charge from 20 or 19 percent on a level 2 charger at home

I have done a similar degradation with my Kia Soul EV 9/2016 with 58.000km ODO. Charged up to 100% with AC. Soul EV Spy app telling 100% SoC for display and 95% for actual (On the App the display value is counted in 0.5% the actual value is counted in 0.1%) I was driving 174,6km with 123 W/km mainly on local contryside roads down to 3% SoC on Display and 4.5% Actual from App. That is 21.48 kW power used that results to 22.14 kW to be 100% resulting a degradation of 14,85% If i do the claculation with the 4.5% remaing from the actual value it would be a degradation of 13.51% not sure if its really correct to use the "actual" values to do ony of this calculations. I guess the slightly of values for SoC at the chargers could come from the actual value as well. This value was at 100% SoC 5 points lower, at about 30% SoC it was about equal and at the end with 3% SoC it was 1.5 points higher. But iam not sure is this value is really the same of your "State of charge BMS" or not. And the State of Health from the app is at my Soul 90.8%.

I do not know how Kia set up max voltage on those cells when new, but I made tests with older 18650 batteries, also had several years of service in laptops. Those cells, were (depending on how degraded they were) also not able even to charge to 4.2, many of those could reach only 4.15 and so on. So I can use that also for estimation, if we knew max voltage when new.

Heat loss is caused by electrons travelling through a resitance. Degraded betteries have increased internal resitance meaning more energy is lost in the batteries.

Bjørn, I would like to ask you for a suggestion. If you plan to buy a second hand EV, you might be very interested in knowing the degradation of the battery. However, I don’t think you can do this full test before buying the car. So… I think it would be nice if you could have a short test (like 1h or so) to give us an indication of the degradation. If there is any way to do that, I would be very happy to watch that video

@xxxyyy4538

2 жыл бұрын

actually. sometimes u can. I asked my dealer for a "one battery cycle testdrive" before "the final signature". worked fine! (typically dealers currently don't expose battery health...)

Another great test, thank you so much for your work! It would be about time that Kia responds to this obviously flawed series of Soul's. It is obvious that this systematic level of degradation is only explainable by a flawed design or production fault, Kia must respond, and the EV community must try to shove this into public mainstream focus. Kia must be held responsible and must replace the batteries or at least pay owners a compensation for an obviously flawed car.

Thank you for testing old EVs.Is great Could you get some Renault Zoe and some VW Up? Even Some of the 2019 cars like Peugeot e208 (or alternatives from Stelantis corpo) or from Hyundai-Kia similar ~2019 age. Having 3yo vehicles will prove a good checkpoint for future reference, to see how they fare in longer run. Best regards PS: regarding the commentary of mostly AC charged. From a past video i understood that recently the Kia Soul was mostly supercharged, so mighty that have an impact , as in, maybe the old battery being subjected to fast charging to have suffered a severe drop in the last 6 months?!

Is deg per 1000 cycles that useful? It seems like age and battery size are as big if not bigger factors. Take a look at Millenium Falcon vs the p85 signature. It might be an issue in a car with a small battery where you have more cycles compared to a car of similar mileage, but not so much in cars with large batteries.

So I am thinking it is just the issue of not easily controlling the max charge level in Dailey use. Kia thankfully fix this in my 2020 Soul EV, so now I just plug in and it stops at my charging level of 80% that I have set.

I had my 27kWh Soul with 103k km go through service at Bertel o steen november 2021. They claimed 89% on the battery.

@bjornnyland

2 жыл бұрын

Never trust SoH.

@Alekpowah

2 жыл бұрын

@@bjornnyland SOH is what the dealer uses to deny battery replacements so you can't trust it, but you're still stuck with it as a measurement.. So i sold it and got a 2022 TM3, let's hope the buyer won't have any surprises.

Would you recommend this car? Looking to get my 1st EV but I'm on a limited budget. I've been looking at Kia Soul 27kWh and Nissan Leaf 30kWh Tekna

I have a 2015 Soul EV with 118,000 miles. The original battery degraded past 70% at 33 thousand miles, Kia replaced it free of charge. Second battery degraded at 77K miles, Kia replaced that free of charge. Third battery is from another manufacture (Kia changed from their original battery supplier due to this issue). Third battery is going strong, at 118K. SOH is showing 100% still. When reviewing EV's you need to take the warranty into consideration. Kia would replace the battery up to 80,000 miles.

Test a 2019 Audi 55😀

What app are you using and where to plug in?

@bjornnyland

2 жыл бұрын

Car Scanner

That 2012, 9-year-old 24kwh Leaf is starting to look not too bad in terms of degradation compared to the Soul (s). Interesting.. only 23.8% degraded after 101, 000 km

The cycle is always defined as one (what you call) 'deep' cycle. If you only discharge it partially, you have then (in your example) 1/10 cycle.

One thing keeps bothering me. You Bjorn calculate Soul (27 kwh ) battery capacity new as 26 kwh, when Ioniq (28 kwh) the same 26 kwh. What if it really is 25 kwh as new. Then it will be same - 1 kwh as in Ioniq. That will change the results in degradiation quite much.

1 percent at 100% SOC has more energy than 1 percent at 0% SOC - yes, because SOC does not measure energy at all, it considers only capacity, not voltage. The difference could be up to 40% (4.2 V / 3.0 V).

@w0ttheh3ll

2 жыл бұрын

At least, this is the technical definition of SOC. Of course, car makers can display whatever numbers they like.

I'm looking forward for some aftermarket batteries for these old EVs. In the next 5+ years there will be tons of decent EVs with dead batteries.

But for 10,000 is this over all good buy, they are approaching this price range in 2024, assuming the average price of gas remains below 4.50 a gallon in the USA, ( a big if actually based on Russian and China economys imploding and the pressure that puts on world energy markets and OPEC)

I would be willing to help and test my January 2017 kia soul ev. Only 49 others left that would like to do the same. Who's in?

Here is a kia eNiro 2020 with 120k km and 1,1% degradation (charged nearly everything on DC) kzread.info/dash/bejne/q6WeptmldLjHf9o.html (at ~2min) So later models with bigger batteries seem to do much better - hopefully ;-)

Can you make a comparison between 40KWh and 20KWh battery ? Probably not charged to 100% as often.

@bjornnyland

2 жыл бұрын

There's no 40 and 20 kWh battery.

@perandersnilsson1974

2 жыл бұрын

@@bjornnyland it was a rounding off, what makes a twice as big battery a difference ?

14:28 By having smaller cycles you will get less total cycles not more. The battery will last longer.

@bjornnyland

2 жыл бұрын

Korrekt

Wife degrade? So you plan to upgrade?! Wth, Bjorn XD

My 2016 Kia Soul 1.6 Diesel with 110 000 km has the same range now( or even better ) than when it was new !

@valtersvasilis

2 жыл бұрын

You might be correct, engines may consume more fuel during run-in period.

@markbader4942

2 жыл бұрын

It also still has 5-6x operating costs.

27kwh to begin with isn't great.

Wives and cars degrades... which is why you should get a new one every few years ;)