I posted this comment on an older video on your channel ("How Fast did Mozart and Beethoven Really Play" from 2017) - but wanted to post it here as well since this is about essentially the same topic of interpreting metronome marking speeds . . . As a professor of acoustics (Ph.D. in Acoustics, 1995 and B.Mus. piano performance, 1988) this actually makes a lot of sense to me. A similar confusion of a "doubling" or "halving" of frequency shows up in a lot of old acoustics texts as well. The modern unit for frequency (the number of complete oscillations in one second) is the Hertz (Hz). An oscillation or vibration of 1 Hz means that there is one complete oscillation (one complete back and forth round trip) occurring within in a time of one second. The frequency corresponding to middle C on a modern piano is close to 256 Hz which means that the middle C string undergoes a complete vibration (back and forth, round trip) 256 times each second. However, long before the 1960's when the modern unit of Hertz (Hz) was adopted as the standard unit of frequency there was quite a bit of variation in the units used to describe frequency. In the 19th century, the French tradition referred to frequency as a "vibration single" (v.s.) a method of counting based on a seconds pendulum which ticks once going forward and once returning -- two ticks per second. This is just like a metronome that makes two ticks -- one tick as the bob moves to the right and a second tick as the bob returns to the left. However, the French also used the term "vibration double" (v.d.) -- similar to the counting method use by German and English scientists -- which only counted one tick per second so that 1 v.d. is twice as long as 1 v.s. This shows up on the tuning forks manufactured by Rudolph Koenig in the late 1880's. Koenig's forks were labeled with the "v.s." system, so that his tuning fork for "middle c" was marked 512 v.s. which is the same as 256 v.d. or 256 Hz. So, if you picked up a Koenig tuning fork marked 512, it actually represents a frequency half that value. According to what you discuss your videos, it would appear that Beethoven, Czerny, and Chopin used a similar "vibration single" method of counting that included one tick as the metronome moves right and a second tick as the metronome moves back left -- two ticks for one complete cycle. So, the problem of interpretation is determining whether a metronome marking of one half note = 108 means (a) one half note for each "tick" of the metronome set to 108, interpreting the number as a "vibration double" (one tick per complete cycle) -- which should be ridiculously fast, or (b) one half note for every two ticks of the metronome set to 108, interpreting the number as a "vibration single" (two ticks per complete cycle) which is much more manageable.

@AuthenticSound

6 жыл бұрын

Thank you so much Dan, for sharing your thoughts. As a matter of fact, Lorenz and I would love to have contact with professionals who could take this subject a bit outside its musical context only. If you feel to talk a bit more on the subject in private, I'm more than happy to do so. best wishes, Wim

@lsbrother

6 жыл бұрын

I can't think that this poses a practical problem of interpretation because as you say if you double the speed then it doesn't just become fast - it becomes ridiculously, impossibly fast - nobody would dream that was the intention!

@dantrizz

Жыл бұрын

This is such a fascinating thing to hear about

I cannae remember where I read this during my "renacimiento" of my technique; however, I do remember reading that the great Chopin lamented that "they" were playing his Polonaises too rapidly. His Op. 53 especially in the "ostinato" section, and his "Military" when played in proper tempo reminds one of a great military march. Remember that the Polonaise is a DANCE, and upon watching this DANCE, it is illogical that any performer (interpreter) should play faster because the poor Polish aristocracy would have been break dancing for crying out loud! We didn't have DJs; we had players. Keeping lots of this stuff in mind helps to recreate traditions that were once upon a time. Another fantastisch video, Wim!

@AuthenticSound

6 жыл бұрын

Thanks Tom! Wasn't it Liszt who used that image in one of his lessons?

@thomashughes4859

6 жыл бұрын

There is an old Roman phrase that goes something like "Damn those who have had our ideas before us", and I am happy to know that my realisation came independently, but that Liszt said the same thing. Neat. By the way, I have told my daughters that I found you, and they are thrilled by the music. My wife says that she can actually HEAR something now. HAHA! This is a great way to "renovate" the Classical era; keep it up, please!

@dan74695

4 жыл бұрын

Thomas Hughes Cannae?

@thomashughes4859

4 жыл бұрын

@@dan74695 variant of "cannot" "can not". This is a very curious auxiliary - and accompanying adverb - in English. Thanks for asking.

This is fascinating, as usual, Wim. I'm not going to argue about the change of fashion in piano performance around the middle of the 19th century, but I don't think that had anything to do with Chopin playing relatively few concerts. He didn't play many public concerts when he was younger, either. He really hated it and avoided it as much as possible. In some of his earlier public appearances, when he was around 20 and playing with orchestras, people complained that he played too quietly, and that was discouraging as well. He gave up on his original idea of being a typical traveling virtuoso, and concentrated on teaching and composing. His playing was generally very well received in more intimate settings, and he was much more comfortable that way. He did give a major concert in Paris in 1848, the last one of his life, and that was well attended.

@AuthenticSound

6 жыл бұрын

Thanks for sharing this Elene! And as a pianist in his circles, some regarded him being the greatest of all.

The solution is quite simple, just practice 40 hours per day

@LkFia_

4 жыл бұрын

Ling Ling!!!!

@gabrielgan2971

4 жыл бұрын

Lol that twoset reference

@PGuima10

4 жыл бұрын

Ling lings are everywhere!! Hahahaaa

@TigaToonsELTiagor

4 жыл бұрын

I was waiting for someone to say that.

@piano8556

4 жыл бұрын

its sacrilegious to question the numbers

I love the rooms and places you usually shoot these videos also the lightings and the backgrounds. The considerations about metronomes are interesting and I often neglect just giving an almost subconscious look at the metronome numbers, but I do too consider the speeds and tempos of what might have been in those times and during any major composers time.

@AuthenticSound

6 жыл бұрын

Thanks for watching and sharing your thoughts!

Ooh, so interesting!! I'd love to hear you play the fortepiano! I've heard some recordings where Chopin is played with fortepiano, and they have a peculiar, yet pleasant sound in them. Very nice video!!

@AuthenticSound

6 жыл бұрын

a little bit of patience :)

Like to hear the whole thing at 1/2 speed, the fragment sounded nice.

@AuthenticSound

6 жыл бұрын

a few months of patience!

18 notes per second is almost in the audible range of frequencies, properly in the subcontrabass register

I must thank you a lot for your sensible theory and the back-up you got from the Prop. of acoustics - Dan Russell. It gives assurance to what I have felt (didn't know about - I admit) when performing.

What a great video! So well presented and wonderfully informative!

I remember Claudio Arrau played this piece in a moderate tempo with a lot of breathe while Raoul Pugno played it so fast it was a real presto. I tend to agree more with Arrau's tempo for more room to express.

Your work is so thorough and factually correct, I can't imagine why it's not yet mainstream in the music world. Great minds are so often resisted in history.

Hast du da wirklich eine Orgel zu Hause stehen? Mal wieder ein Genuss dir zuzusehen/zuzuhören. Du bist ein absoluter Vollblutmusiker und so leidenschaftlich dabei. Das ist sehr beeindruckend

@AuthenticSound

4 жыл бұрын

thank you. There is an old video on the channel about the organ, if you'd like to see it in detail.

18 notes per second is insane. That's 18 Hz, almost within the range of human hearing (20 - 20K Hz) as a distinct frequency.

@TigaToonsELTiagor

4 жыл бұрын

Omg, it is!

@Cypsky

4 жыл бұрын

Technically it would 9 Hertz you measure the number of cycles not the number of min max of the signal.

@CaptJackAubreyOfTheRoyalNavy

4 жыл бұрын

@@Cypsky I'm not sure about that. If you think of it like a square wave, with positive and negative polarity, on and off, then 18 notes per second with equal silence between the notes would be 18 positive plus 18 negative wave periods. So 18 full wave cycles per second.

@Cypsky

4 жыл бұрын

@@CaptJackAubreyOfTheRoyalNavy Even if you simplify the signal to square, a cycle would still be the defined by length it takes to repeat itself ( 2 notes and 2 silence in what you describe). Now will most likely find harmonics as it's not gonna be a simple signal. And I'm sure our ears and brain decode this in very interesting ways and this is why fast textures in later romantic music can create such interesting colors and effects that are going beyond the notes.

Why not a word about Bülow's little note on Cramer's metronome numbers in the preface to the edition?? Could be worth mentioning here the case of Frederic Lamond - he became a Liszt pupil after turning up to Weimar with a letter of recommendation from Hans von Bülow. (we can hear him talking about it himself here on KZread) Lamond became particularly famous for playing Beethoven, and made an edition of the Beethoven sonatas; in which he reproduces many of von Bülow's metronome numbers. He also recorded a number of the sonatas on disc... while his tempi are not always precisely concurrent with his edition, they are certainly far from being anything like "half tempo."

@AuthenticSound

6 жыл бұрын

Since that will serve for another video. My stand is that few people, if any, were really concerned about tradition, they saw tradition as moving forward, making progress. So the students of students of, decades later, there is, to me, not much more to learn than how they played at that time, and yes, around 1900 that was really fast. Those old recordings for me are a strong sign that what musicologists tell us, that tempi decreased in the 19th c, is not the case, since that does not match with those recordings

@cziffra1980

5 жыл бұрын

@@AuthenticSound so he slowly doubled his tempos as he grew older- unlike just about everyone else in history, who tended to slow down over the years? You're arguing like a lawyer, who needs to discredit inconvenient truths, but your argument here is not just speculative but also a thoroughly illogical piece of speculation.

@warrenwinslow4266

4 жыл бұрын

@@AuthenticSound o

Hmm. So you think it's more credible that the whole piece would be played so tediously slowly, than that von Bulow expected people to have the musical taste to play trills (in a slower section) with some flexibility?

@AuthenticSound

5 жыл бұрын

One should always try to start from the facts first , this might help: kzread.info/dash/bejne/mayZxqeKisKoh5M.html

@cziffra1980

5 жыл бұрын

@@AuthenticSound I'm familiar with your generalised arguments from outside. I was commenting on the flaws in your specific portrayal of this situation. It's not remotely unlikely that he expected the performer to slow down for the section or further still for trills. You've just assumed that he wouldn't have thought that way because it would be more convenient for you if true. What it far more unlikely is that he expected the opening to be played utterly without life.

*More than 10,000 views in 3 days! Very good Maestro Wim! Greetings!*

@AuthenticSound

6 жыл бұрын

I was surprised as well.. but all thanks to the people who watch the videos!

Great video Wim ..nice to see your research into the music ..Thanks .. :)

I'm so glad I've come across your channel...I find your videos very interesting, and I spent much time in my university years (I still do) researching tempo relationships, metronome markings, etc. so I'm very happy to find your wonderful channel. A few thoughts to share: as one who specializes in Bel Canto, from which so much of the musical/melodic gesture of 19th Century romantic pianism stems from, I can tell you that I've noticed quite a few problems when attempting to sing certain songs which have been ascribed metronome markings. For example, there is a Donizetti song I am working on where in one of the episodes there is a marking of Eighth Note = 116 in 6/8 (it is not yet ascertained if this is Donizetti's marking, or the editors). It's entirely too slow to sing it as a single beat, and it loses the arch and direction of the phrase, so adjustments are required...but even within the same episode, the accompaniment figures changed and thus the character of the music and text change...I find that approaching the phrases with flexibility allows for the musical and interpretative gestures to communicate more clearly and with greater ease. Of course, the discussion of 'rubato' is always tricky, however, in the case of Chopin, we know from many sources that his way of performing rubato was quite singular and is expected in his music. Evidently much of that style has been lost through the ages, but an interesting source that provides some indication are the Mazurkas transcribed and set to texts by Pauline Viardot-Garcia, who was a friend of Chopin's. Personally, I think the danger that has developed with metronome markings is the expectation that music should be therefore performed metronomically; I disagree in that there are many examples where a melody or the character of the music is revealed or altered by a slight adjustment in tempo. Bernstein made a fabulous video about this using the opening of the Eroica, and the famous quote of Gluck that a tempo too slow or too fast would alter and lose the character of "Che farò senza Euridice." In this particular instance of the Chopin Impromptu, it seems that a likely solution is that the successive progression of trills could indicate an interpretative broadening of the tempo which would certainly allow for the trills to be executed as indicated by von Bülow while still allowing them room for expression and phrasal direction. So much of what constitutes style and performance practice, alas, never actually appears on the page! All the best to you and thank you for all your wonderful hard work and research!

@AuthenticSound

6 жыл бұрын

It's great to read your thoughts here Michele, thanks for sharing. If you have detailed questions on MM, sent me a mail at wwinters(at)telenet.be, I'll have Lorenz look at it, he has an incredible library of original prints. Rubato: it is tricky, some say (Mikuli) chopin played strict in time, others (Moscheles) reports on a concert he never kept time. I could imagine something in between, where Moscheles was old school, where in later Beethoven you'd have this Czerny rubato (he in detail describes this in his piano school opus 500 -also in English available) or later music where one would have somewhat more of that. Slowing down however in a particular place to make trills like this possible (or for instance in the etude opus 10/9, the quintool 16ths at the end) I don't see that they did that. Keep me posted on your findings!

@MicheleAngeliniTenor

6 жыл бұрын

How interesting to find a report of Chopin playing his own music in strict time to be rather strange because almost all contemporary reports were that he played with a particular and unique style of rubato. If I remember correctly, Max Rudolf made comments about this. I mean, his style of rubato was commented upon so often in contemporary sources that the very idea of playing almost anything of his in "strict tempo" seems unstylistic to me. But, I am also of the opinion that "strict" tempo does more harm to music than good...all 8th notes are not created equal, and musicality and phrasing comes from deciding how best to phrase a subject. Yes, every musician should learn how to play with complete metronomic control, but then the music needs to breathe. So much of Pre-Romantic music really is like jazz in that sense...this is the sort of approach that makes Gardiner's performances and recordings so exciting...a hint of improvisation, and a following of musical gesture. What I am imagining in the case of the trills is a broadening of the sequence, an interpretative expression to take us beyond the suspension created by the successive trills...as a result, a small relaxation of the beat, not really a slowing down, would allow for von Bülow's suggestion to occur more musically and not rushed....thus maintaining the same sense of the general tempo without resorting to an unmusical technical application or a distortion of the tempo. This is what I meant, rather than a slowing down. We vocalists do it all the time when we have trills because in order to be able to amply supply the trill with requisite breath and keep time for the mechanism to effect the nachschlag, there can be a broadening of the beat at the end of the trill to accommodate it. It has nothing to do with tempo but everything to do with style. For me, the musical gesture always comes first, otherwise what's the point? A small anecdote that maybe you can clarify: There are several reports that Mozart's style of rubato would be to keep the left hand in strict time while the right hand would bend the tempo. This was evidently so impressive and yet unexpectedly off-putting to some of his listeners, but other musicians would marvel at his ability to do so. Have you encountered further evidence of this and any idea of how he might have accomplished it without creating dissonances in the harmonic changes?

I worked on this one with a teacher sometime ago. I never achieved the 130 bpm tempo, though it wasn't too slow either. This piece is one that needs to move at a quick tempo due to its shape and phrasing. I've heard Claudio Arrau and other play the impromptus and with this one the A and C sections are played quickly while the middle, the B section is taken a bit slower so as to enjoy the trills as if there's a reprieve and then pick up the tempo again for the end.

18 notes a second? SaCRiLeGiOuS

Wow, I never seen this instrument before!

Nice vid! Man I need to get my hands on some of these editions made by him.

Thank you for more information about distant relative, Hans.

@AuthenticSound

6 жыл бұрын

Was thinking on you when recording it!

Awesome!!!!!!! Thank you so much for sharing your amazing knowledge! Continuous blessings!💋❤💖💖❤💞💕💓💐💐👏👏

What we learn from Counterpoint is that there is a limit to what the composer can hear in his mind so that the real check is not what fingers can do but what the ear can detect.

@AuthenticSound

2 жыл бұрын

true, and there is cool research done on this topic

@Maestro-FR

2 жыл бұрын

@@AuthenticSound could you list some of that research ?

Really digging your channel!

@AuthenticSound

6 жыл бұрын

Thanks, great to read Xitlalic!

What are some of the top books you'd recommend to read about the life of Mozart, any favorites? In previous videos you always quote stories and instances in composer lives and I find that fascinating.

@AuthenticSound

6 жыл бұрын

I would say any source the more original the better. Start with his letters I'd say, you might find yourself often wanting to do some extra research, but there you hear Mozart as if he speaks to you.

Fascinating, great video.

revolutionary.

Hey there! I've just recently discovered your channel and I love it! I disagree with you in a lot of things, but it's always nice to hear different perspectives as long as they are well thought out. In the specific issue at hand, if you claim pianists at that time were not interested in keeping the musical traditional as much as we are today, why are we taking Hans von Bülow as a reliable source to how Chopin might have wanted his impromptus and more specifically his trills to be played? He was not a student of Chopin directly so why is his opinion so important to you? Furthermore, I would like to note that the "tr" notation for trills, is historically a rather free one. Especially for long trills. Can you imagine someone counting how many notes he's playing during the last pages of the op. 111 of Beethoven? In that particular passage I just want to have a nice soft trill with even sound. Some pianists will achieve that with very fast trills, others with not so fast. The fact the Hans von Bülow think you should fit 16 notes in the trill you are talking about is absolutely irrelevant to me. Most people don't count how many notes they play in a medium/long trill and I'm positive Chopin didn't either. In fact that might vary from performance to performance! Awesome video though!

@AuthenticSound

6 жыл бұрын

I see your point, but that's not the point that I wanted to make though. If you were studying with von Bülow, be sure that you had to play that trill exactly as he wrote in full. In fact, we have many examples of that. So, if he kept the tradition or not of Chopin, is quasi irrelevant. The problem I was reflecting upon is that 18 notes in one second makes no sense, and again, vB was not the person that would make such mistakes in his editions. So we just can skip that information as study material (which I would understand!) or reflect on it. That's all! Thanks for the compliment!

@evelynn1406

6 жыл бұрын

I see, thanks for taking the time to answer!

Very interesting!Thanks for this video

Interesting indeed! May I ask you what are your thoughts on Bergmuller op 100 crazy M.M marking? Especially if we consider that they are referred to as "Easy Pieces".

@AuthenticSound

6 жыл бұрын

will be a topic once the pianoforte is here: metrical of course!

Very interesting!

18 Notes /Second. If you can play something slowly, You can play it quickly

great video, just a little advice: at 13:02 i would love to see the hands even if its basically just two fingers moving up and down

@AuthenticSound

6 жыл бұрын

Thanks for watching Eric and expressing your concern here, that is very right. In the music performances, you'll see many angles, but you're right, it could be done also here, we have to level up everything on the channel and around, since we're at a maximum of time that we can spent. Such Wednesday vids usually, prep and edit included, takes around 12-16 hours of production. The edit at least must be outsourced once.

I love your Clavi! And good to hear about the Pianoforte too!

Thank you for your work.

Today we have an expectation that music such as this will be played with a liberal amount of rubato. (Just listen to Ashkenazy!) Do you think that was part of the style in Chopin's day? If so, how does that effect your interpretation of the metronome marking? Is the number equal to the fastest beats in a measure, or is it the speed the tempo starts at, or is it a sort of average tempo throughout the piece?

@AuthenticSound

6 жыл бұрын

Chopin was known on his strict tempi, even have the metronome ticking when students played. So it's hard to say...

*no can I*

(EDITED Comment): Here's a duplicate of commentary I mentioned under another video. This may also help to provide some context as; it mentions an actual recording digitized in 2012 or 2013. kzread.info/dash/bejne/YoN4lbymdMLaZaw.html -- Here for you to consider are more clips of 19th Century recordings. By any chance are you able to play either Alfred Grunfeld, and or Frederic Chopin's work at the speed they were meant to be played at? In order to 'hear' properly you will need to CHANGE YOUR VIDEO PLAYBACK SPEED TO 1.75 using the 'wheel' symbol next to the "CC" symbol underneath the video. Chopin's recording was from, 23 January 1890. Grunfeld's recording was from 18 November 1889. Thanks for your consideration. Enjoy.

Very fascinating! Another great post! Could you review Frederik Magle’s piece for organ called “Lament”

You need more subscribers

@AuthenticSound

6 жыл бұрын

Thanks!

@larsfrandsen2501

6 жыл бұрын

Yes, this is pure gold!

I love your videos.

In the time of Bülow pianists knew much more about playing rubato, than now. They was not counting every bar with exact metronome. So it needs a little bit of fantasy to imagine, that Bülow was not asking for playing exactly 18 notes per second, but just puted it in a naturally context of rubato playing. BTW Thanks a lot, that you did not try to play the first passage of this impromptu on a organ!

@AuthenticSound

6 жыл бұрын

Hi David, yes that's often said, and as with all information of the past, you must go deeper in detail. If VB wanted you to slow down there, he would have told you to do so, but he didn't, and the kind of sudden tempo shifts we sometimes hear today, were, as I believe, not so common back then. Chopin had his metronome often ticking when teaching and was known to keep time rather strongly, except for the Mazurka's but there we enter a world full of mystery, also to contemporaries of him

Looking at the text at 12:00 - the same rules for the ornament for Bach und Chopin? Wasn't there a change? I'm not sure at the moment, but I think there was a time when you played a trill differently? Hmmmm...

@EleneDOM

6 жыл бұрын

Chopin, as far as we know, thought of trills similarly to Bach and people of that time. Chopin's trills should generally begin on the upper note unless he tells you otherwise. I believe it was Hummel who started the fashion of beginning trills on the main note, but Chopin did not follow him on that.

@AuthenticSound

6 жыл бұрын

and added to the wonderful comments below already, we must always make the distinction between how - in this case- Bach would have played trills, and how that generation thought Bach might have had trills. We're always living in a context, even today, see the short appogiatura for instance

I don't think that the piano hammers can respond that fast, considering that even someone like Conlon Nacarrow had to make his player pianos hydraulic operated in order to play some of the tempos his pieces demanded.

@ethanl.1699

6 жыл бұрын

CrimSun I think the fastest one key on a grand piano can play is 14 notes per second. So if you don’t play more than one note, it would be impossible.

I'm sorry but are you seriously trying to argue that Chopin's music is all being played at double speed? How exactly do you account for the fact that nobody noticed, including people who knew Chopin very well and often heard him play? Bülow was born in 1830 and Chopin died in 1849.

@AuthenticSound

6 жыл бұрын

The thing is that it was noticed see for instance: kzread.info/dash/bejne/YmqI2phmpsKxdco.html&list=PLackZ_5a6IWVP1Nb_Zxr-RfFHX62Nz9iQ&index=4

@au1368

6 жыл бұрын

That link goes to a video about Mozart, specifically about one person's vague recollections about a performance from 50 years before. Chopin's works were played continuously from publication by people who knew him well and respected his aesthetic judgments, and who would have definitely noticed if the tempi (given with metronome markings in early pieces) were so completely erroneous. His piano works were written for keyboards with a very light and rapid action, on which the tempi are easier to attain. Furthermore, Chopin was consistently reported to be a very heavy user of rubato. That particular bar should be played with a slight ritardando, but the trill should still glitter. It is perfectly possible to play as the editor suggested.

@AuthenticSound

6 жыл бұрын

The point in the Mozart video is not if Tomascheck was right or wrong on the 1790 performance he heard, the point is that his MM were considered to be normal against the 1840 performance practice. So in 1840, no doubt about that, since Finck published those MM and so approved them, people were playing 'way faster', even in a way that Finck felt the need of using very strong words to condemn that. Well, way faster than the Thomasheck numbers, is not possible. So what's the solution? The Tomascheck story (he was a very known musician) is typically one that musicologists skip, since there is only one solution. And again, it is about the big picture.

Sehr interessant!

@AuthenticSound

6 жыл бұрын

Glad to read Dana!

Ling Ling can play 1800 notes per second

@itsjudystube7439

Жыл бұрын

That’s why his hair stands on end 😂

Bulow added his own metronome marks to the Beethoven sonatas as well.

@AuthenticSound

6 жыл бұрын

yes, and vB is a person that needs way more attention and research - many things are still tobe put into the context of his time

@ruramikael

6 жыл бұрын

But he seems to have lost the connection with the Czerny tradition?

@ruramikael

6 жыл бұрын

imslp.org/wiki/S%C3%A4mmtliche_Compositionen_(Beethoven%2C_Ludwig_van)

@ruramikael

6 жыл бұрын

Liszt was involved in this edition, very "clean" (no metronome marks, no editorial comments). He stayed out of the Breitkopf&Härtel-edition, except that he arranged the symphonies for solo piano. There he used the "official" metronome marks.

Hello Wim, how are you? I got really interested in your research lately, specifically regarding the tempo and the metronome double beat theory. But I'm still a bit confused, how do you manage to find the correct tempo on a piece that has triple meter? For example the Dotted Whole note = 86, what would be the metronome using the single beat? I can find it easily on double meters but when it comes to third I get confused, anyway, I'm really grateful for your research and it has really helped my playing.

@AuthenticSound

6 жыл бұрын

It is not so hard to find the right tempo with 3:2 (proportio sesquialtera), but honestly, I was introduced to the fascinating background of that, first when doing the interviews with Lorenz. We made 2 episodes on that: kzread.info/dash/bejne/lmh_x5enpsnaiso.html and kzread.info/dash/bejne/k3-Ou7pmdqTfgaw.html

Do either of your daughters play music? or Do they get tired of dad playing all the time? Would love to see your daughters sometimes play.

Very interesting video!

@AuthenticSound

6 жыл бұрын

thanks!

Hi Wim ! Still following you ! What do you think about the chorale section of the 3rd Scherzo ? I've never seen any indications that the arpeggios shoud be played very faster than the chords, but everybody does this. I think that really makes sense, but there's no indication and I'm very curious by that a loooong time !

@AuthenticSound

6 жыл бұрын

Great to read Otavio, you mean the 3d Chopin scherzo? I would have to look to that, might be interesting!

@otaviolamounier6366

6 жыл бұрын

yes ! Thank you for the reply !

I understand - is there a case for playing these trills with increasing rubato to create suspense for the following faster section. For example in the middle section of the 2nd Scherzo, the trills in the final section of the A Flat Polonaise, and many other Chopin middle sections, the Fantasie Impromptu etc ...

@AuthenticSound

6 жыл бұрын

might be, but as far as I work, I'll keep arguments like that for as far to the end as possible. Often, turning the things around (and not saying I know this here with this impromptu), but for classical works it often simply is striking that, when you do take MM in double beat reading, how the score and details of it clarify.

Your the best

I am curious how you would play the whole piece at this tempo.

@AuthenticSound

6 жыл бұрын

we'll have more Chopin later

@cziffra-eg9st

6 жыл бұрын

ManticTac there is something called rubato.

very interesting. Well done.

@AuthenticSound

6 жыл бұрын

Thanks Fred, always great to read you here!

Ling ling can play mire than 500 notes per second 😎

can you please help me with non piano music?

Thanks for this fascinating and instructive talk and demonstration! I cannot quite believe that the slower tempo is what Chopin had in mind for the opening section, but the questions you raise, and the information you base them on, raise many important questions, and for that, again, many thanks! I do not have the score handy. However, I just listened to the recording by Raoul Pugno (kzread.info/dash/bejne/aaxotJqjhZjgppc.html), and I noticed that he takes a much slower tempo in the middle section of the piece, which contains the measures with the trills you mention. If that section of the piece was traditionally played more slowly than the metronome marking for the opening and closing sections (and Pugno was a pupil of Georges Mathias, who was a pupil of Chopin... though that is not definitive proof of anything), would that not explain some of this apparently impossible tempo for the trills, while leaving the opening at the faster tempo indicated by the metronome marking?

@AuthenticSound

6 жыл бұрын

Possibly... my take on this is that, in Pugno's case, he was indeed a student of Matthias, but they did not keep that tradition alive, in a way we would today. Pugno even shared some stories of his teacher, explaining to him about a certain nocturne, that Chopin played that much different then they did in those later days. It's is rather clear that listening to someone like Pugno gives you a picture of playing late 19th c which must have been completely different than 50 years before. We can not think anymore like that, for instance, see Tournemire, the student of César Franck and successor of the Saint Clothilde, he had the Franck organ completely rebuilt, electrified, horrible things done we'd say, and yet, he was so proud, saying that now the Franck organ is a better one for the music... that was composed for the previous organ. They really believed that change, progress, was part of keeping a tradition.

@HenrikBergpianorganist

6 жыл бұрын

As I mentioned above, those trills are not at all impossible in the tempo given in the score! One needs to do some trill exercises though. Maybe on the clavichord it's tricky though, I wouldn't know.

great video...say Wim what is that metronome app that shows the pulse from left to right when sound turned off please?..saw it in another video

@AuthenticSound

6 жыл бұрын

it's called 'metronome beats' on the android Playstore and free (with adds)

@michaeldumas4907

6 жыл бұрын

thanks Wim

I have a question... At what tempo would you play Etude Op. 10, No. 6?

@AuthenticSound

6 жыл бұрын

Chopin gives dotted quarter = 69. Recalculated metrically that's 8th note 104, which is a beautiful tempo for this etude! You might want to see also this: kzread.info/dash/bejne/ZK2Yma6QmZfdpdY.html&list=PLackZ_5a6IWVP1Nb_Zxr-RfFHX62Nz9iQ&index=1

I've been doing some researches of my own - having biggest public library in Europe along the road helps! Mendelssohn trios, six movts, are impossible at single beat, sound 2/3 too slow at double beat - inference: were slower. Chopin Pno Conc 1 - likewise 2/3 slower. Beethoven Hammerklavier, certainly not single beat, again rather slow (haha I can play it all now). Beethoven symphonies. In many parts insanely fast as single beat, and double-beat comes over awfully tame (not like anyone would want to hear, Eroica begins and ends with a funeral march!) AND YET - certain parts sound ridiculously slow at double, and sound just right at single (fast) speed, including presto/prestissimos of 9/4 and 7/4. Oh, and the "EU anthem" in 9/4 (bar 92-, bar 240- and bar 535 (with ref to bar 331)) sounds like the Ode to Slugs instead. Maybe Beeth got his maths wrong sometimes. The more one knows the less one is sure of anything.... (Isn't there a quicker way of driving us mad?)

@AuthenticSound

6 жыл бұрын

I know the feeling :). One tip: you'll often come across movements that seem too slow at the beginning. Sometimes the feeling stays, but more than once you'll see a new reality appear. It just takes time, 25 years for me and there are still a lot of 'secrets'

@rjones2209

6 жыл бұрын

Has anyone looked at Brahms and Grieg concertos? Metro marks can be found in Table 4 at symposium.music.org/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=1992:on-tempo-indications-based-on-beethovens-music

I have a hard time believing that the number on notes in the representation of the trill is as relevant as you claim it to be (I think the point is much more to show how the "small notes" are to be played, since beginners might thing they have to play the "main" trill note twice in a row), however on this video we are diving into very interesting topics! The very definition of virtuosity changed in that time (losing its "compositional" component in favor of what used to be a matter of "dilettante", i.e. the playing by the score) and indeed the musical world was split between change and tradition. A lot of performers are unaware of that, and reading quotes of Czerny, Riemann, Wieck etc. about the situation of that time is extremely interesting! Have you read Eigeldinger's book about Chopin's students? (I believe you have because you seem very knowledgeable on this topic) It seems that his interpretation might not necessarily have been as "conservative" as you are implying, given that he reportedly allowed some very "sports-like" students to perform in his place when he was ill (I think one student's name in particular was Gutmann (quoting by memory, not 100% sure)).

@AuthenticSound

6 жыл бұрын

Hi Matthieu, thanks for listening and reflecting. Well, we may believe the number of notes does not matter (since it doesn't fit in our current vision), but in fact trills were written out like this all the time, and it was quite a habit even to note them down in pencil in scores (I have several 19th c. scores annotated by teachers like this). Yes I know the book of Eigeldinger and the (in French) notes that Tellefsen made requested by Chopin to finish his piano school. It is striking how conservative they were (reason possibly why Chopin status at the end of his life). Tellefsen describes two Clementi etudes to show the basic Chopin technique, which is a closed fist (like Beethoven -Moscheles describes that as well- ) and Clementi's Gradus as were some CPEBach probestucke were among standard repertoire in lessons. I've made a video asking out loud if Chopin played the clavichord (since Tellefsen probably did in 1853), but I've found the answer: he did, and I have a magnificent quote that I'll share soon; Not to proof anything, but it opens a perspective on a different chopin than we see today (which is interesting, no more than that!)

is there a good english version of well respected annotations for chopins works?

@AuthenticSound

6 жыл бұрын

Some of the vB editions have English translations as well. How much they reflect of Chopin is an open question of course.

Sorry to say it, but I don't think playing those trills in that tempo as von Bülow notated them is difficult. And that is on a modern piano. To play the whole thing at half speed would be, as you said, all but Allegro assai quasi presto, and I think also the people of that time would've fallen asleep after one minute because it would be tedious. Normally Chopin's fast tempos aren't so strange, it's his slow movements that have weird metronome marks! For example the Nocturne D flat, but also many others.

@AuthenticSound

6 жыл бұрын

Well, try it, it is impossible in fact. And people of that time were divided, it is not so hard to detect this, between an older generation that stood for classical technique and tempi (and Chopin for sure was in that part) and the newer, more technical generation. The older one did not fall asleep of slow performances at all, they rejected fiercefully the faster ones. See for instance : kzread.info/dash/bejne/YmqI2phmpsKxdco.html&index=4&list=PLackZ_5a6IWVP1Nb_Zxr-RfFHX62Nz9iQ

@HenrikBergpianorganist

6 жыл бұрын

I TRIED IT. Not impossible, in fact. I started by playing four notes (16th-notes) against a quarter note, which is easy, then a little faster, so roughly six notes against a quarter note, sounds like normal trill. Then even faster. Sounds a bit hysterical but is doable. But I also did a lot of trill exercises as a kid...

@ffggddss

6 жыл бұрын

I think there's a considerable spread among players, in their ability for speed in playing trills. Being a mere amateur, I fear I'm on the slow end of that spectrum, myself, but I don't doubt that there are some with that ability. An anecdote comes to mind. Back in, I believe it was the 1950's, there was a popular band leader/composer by the name of Leroy Anderson. One of his compositions featured the sound of a typewriter, played rapid-fire. The story goes that he couldn't find a typist who could type at the required speed (& probably with enough regularity); he had to use a drummer! Which highlights differing speed abilities, even among 'professional repetitive tappers.' I guess that could well include us pianists, at least when it comes to trills, and similar ornaments. And at MM 132 = ¼-note, 32nd-notes are at a rate of (132/60)·8 = 17.6/sec. That frequency, 17.6 Hz, is actually *a note* on the Bösendorfer Imperial Grand! It's about ¼ of a semitone above C₀#. Fred

@HenrikBergpianorganist

6 жыл бұрын

Wow, thanks! It makes much more sense on a period instrument!

10:10 I think you did a great job on the mazurka, but I'm not sure if your teacher approves. She doesn't look that thrilled.

@AuthenticSound

6 жыл бұрын

lol, Sofie is always super focused when she's helping me out, but if she would smile all the time, people would be not listening to my playing any more I guess :-): kzread.info/dash/bejne/o2uk1aSDpJuxdLg.html

18 notes per second in the form of a trill is not even sort of impossible. And did I see a fermata over the trill in the score? Hmmm...

@AuthenticSound

6 жыл бұрын

It sure is not impossible on paper!

@shawncharton9416

6 жыл бұрын

As a pianist I can tell you it is not impossible at the keyboard either.

@shawncharton9416

6 жыл бұрын

Especially with a fermata over it in the score - which there is. I looked back.

@AuthenticSound

6 жыл бұрын

there are no fermatas there!

@shawncharton9416

6 жыл бұрын

Perhaps I am mistaken. I am looking at your score in the video. However, I can tell you that between "before the beat" trill onset/termination and rubato, it is a silly thing to say that eighteen notes won't fit in one second. The incipit at the bottom of the page clearly shows a preparatory turn AND a termination. Those are (and should be) done with some artistic license in Chopin. Also, either you have a buzz trill - in which case, why would he write it out - or you have a measured trill. Measured trills are meant to be even. Eighteen doesn't divide evenly into fours. It does divide into three groups of six. (I can't tell if it is triplets or not but it appears to be grouped in fours.) If it's grouped in fours then SOMETHING is amiss mathematically. Any way you slice it, six notes can fit into a third of a second. A sextuplet can be played extremely quickly.

He looks kinda similar to Tom Cruise lol

@AuthenticSound

6 жыл бұрын

That's why Anja married me, she was a fan of Top Gun (of course) :-), thanks for watching!

Dear Wim, I think you have fallen in love with your idea and this is not good. You disregard and dismiss many things due to confirmation bias, to prove your point. I would look at this with a lot more confidence to common sense. ALLEGRO quasi presto IS fast. I would much more find reasonable that Bulow did not mean his 18 motes literally but he rather gave a general idea how to play this trill. I would also tend to find much more reasonable that those metronome markings are not BPM, or dive into the research of whether all metronomes were counting the same, rather than find an idea that covers some ambiguities but produces unreasonable musical result. If there are studies on the above matters it would be very interesting to present them in your interesting channel!

@AuthenticSound

6 жыл бұрын

one advice if you are really interested in reconstructing, go for facts, and leave out any on your own pre-assumption, it's the only way to open your mind. Other great start: play Czerny opus 299 in the MM he gave (their meant as accurate MM, make no mistake about it) and then reflect. Best! Wim

@PbPomper

3 жыл бұрын

So you trust the Allegro indication, but not the metronome markings? I don't see how that is any different.

"Ever heard of Hans von Bülow?" Wasn't he involved in some famous murder trial in 1979? - No, wait, that was Claus von Bülow. Nevermind :-) Fred

@bobvonbuelow9983

6 жыл бұрын

nice try! it was actually an 'attempted murder' trial. His conviction on the first trial was reversed at the second trial. I'm sure you've seen the movie 'Reversal of Fortune' based on this incident.

@ffggddss

6 жыл бұрын

Right, some famous attempted murder trial. And there were actually two trials, with convictions at the first one, and acquittals at the second; also, they were in 1982 - the act in the accusations was in 1979. Is there anything else you think we should add?

@bobvonbuelow9983

6 жыл бұрын

Just that purists (and I'm not among them) note that Claus adopted 'von Bülow' from his mother's maiden name and therefore technically is not a 'von Bülow'. I think it is a moot point. As and aside regarding the umlaut 'ü', when coming to America and American English not having an umlaut, the kind folks at Ellis Island decide to replace the ü with 'ue'. Some of us occasionally revert back to the ü in our name now that it's easier to insert the ü with computers (as opposed to older technology typewriters).

Doesn't matter what Mr. Bulow says or wants? Not possible to play 18 notes a second.Best virtuoso pianist may be able to play 8 notes? Last I remember? A machine could play 9 notes! This was on grand piano! Maybe You put music in computer and able to produce that kind of speed? Not sure if HUMAN could hear it???

@AuthenticSound

6 жыл бұрын

And it would make any sense. He probably just meant to read the MM metrical: kzread.info/dash/bejne/ZK2Yma6QmZfdpdY.html&list=PLackZ_5a6IWVP1Nb_Zxr-RfFHX62Nz9iQ&index=1

10 fingers. 2 in a second per finger

He has an organ?

I love your channel but that’s certainly far from impossible, I can play a much more intricate line nearly 3 times that speed on guitar and so can my keyboard player.

Klinkt als Hans van Buurlo

I'm curious, there's a piano right there and yet you use the clavichord for demonstrating Chopin? We love historically informed performances but doesn't playing Chopin on a clavichord defeats that purpose? An Erard or a Pleyel perhaps?

@EleneDOM

6 жыл бұрын

He explains in detail why he isn't using the Erard to demonstrate in this video. Please listen to the whole thing and it will be clear to you.

@AuthenticSound

6 жыл бұрын

As Elene says, that's in the video explained, the touch of the Erard brings me far from the clavichord and a) I don't want that and b) I have no time to spend time in adapting to different instruments

Their metronomes where certainly steady but maybe not accurate when it comes to indicating the exact tempo. Same for Czerny.

Are you in Germany?

I don't agree with you I think it sounds very good with the shotgun mic.

Only very sacrilegious bois play that fast.

If I may suggest anyone here to listen to the interpretation of Chopin's Etude n°5 from Opus 25 by Chiu (Can be easily found on the channel of "Ashish Xiangyi Kumar". It really sheds a light on mechanics of this etude. And in my humble opinion, I never truly understood this etude played at a quicker tempo while this interpretation... Well, consider trying it !

@AuthenticSound

6 жыл бұрын

Great! Wish we would see the pianist play. Lots of wrong notes, which don't bother me but are significant to mention anyway.

@musicomaniac62

6 жыл бұрын

Wrong notes ? Don't get me wrong but... I don't even know if there is one single wrong note in that recording. :O

Long long insurance

how does one achieve 1000 notes per second

@AuthenticSound

6 жыл бұрын

By making music to an Olympic Sport :)

@omnitone

6 жыл бұрын

AuthenticSound hmm. that MIGHT mork.

@brandonchai9318

6 жыл бұрын

THE Jake360 technically, 1000 notes per second would sound like 1 note.

@omnitone

6 жыл бұрын

Brandon Chai i mean played at 700 polyphony. if you look up black midi you will see a lot of thing like 128th notes and 128 keys. its a strange genre. you just need to find the right composition

@00bean00

6 жыл бұрын

THE ULTRA INSTINCT!!1

Ling ling insurance

I wonder if @Jordan Ruddess watches this channel.

@AuthenticSound

6 жыл бұрын

Would be awesome !

please i love you very much , but please help me with my instruments so i can play more historically!

Hans von Bülow was first chief conductor of the Berlin PO. And, on the dark side, he was one of the first signers of the antisemit's petition.

Why are you playing Chopin on a harpsichord?

@AuthenticSound

6 жыл бұрын

Because my pianoforte has not arrived yet... :-( but it will end of may :-)

@ibuprofen303

6 жыл бұрын

I can play that initial melody on a Casio VL-Tone. Only at the slower speed though.

@airnsmke

6 жыл бұрын

AuthenticSound oh well I think for the purpose of what your are investigating you should be doing this on a piano. One of the original intriguing aspects of the piano was that you could play notes faster, particularly repeated notes. As a side note, I personally am fully confident that Chopin could play it at the tempo indicated🙂

As composer, I hate the notes diarrhea! Seriously! How could you dare to come to pleasure the audience with more than 8 notes per second? Music if for the delight the people. Of course, you can hammer the klavier (double sense needed here), but, it's more epic, more substantial and it caves deeper in the player and listener's souls of you try to give them some substance with the sounds you compose. That is why people event better slower movements and in the case with allegro ones, are the fewer notes contained pieces that people can retain. Vivaldi's Spring first movement principal theme is what people can remember, the rest, does need reconstruction with the music sheet or the audio, just for go with one example. Hasse's Parto qual pastorello is a vocal fireworks and acrobats composition full of difficult techniques, but are those less notes sections that makes the work so impressive. Finally, Locatelli's Harmonic Labyrinth concerto is a "demential" demand for a violin average player (Royer's Vertigo for harpsichord) But, even when Locatelli's idea was a self virtuosic composition, he knew he needed a theme with few notes that could bring to the mind the characteristic of his own stamp: good music coupled with virtuoso passages that imprint in people's mind a pleasant entertainment. Sorry for use Baroque examples only, but, come on! Those were the masters of the speed! ;)

@AuthenticSound

6 жыл бұрын

Thanks for sharing your thoughts here!

Shred guitarists play 16-18 no problem, how the fuck u cant play it on piano its so much easier to play fast on it

This man tell us a lot of Nonsens!! The Taalsma theotie of the "metric" reading of the M.M. numbers is wrong - there are today millions of evidences. And: What's the sense to le the Metronome beat 132 and than Play 3:2????

@AuthenticSound

6 жыл бұрын

If you say so ;) Note that what I'm arguing for is different from the Talsma theory, which proposes variable speeds. But Lorenz and I have not found any evidence for use of variable use of the metronome. It's all either single or double. Video: kzread.info/dash/bejne/l6J3yaZvn9vRpqQ.html Here is another video on triple meter: kzread.info/dash/bejne/lmh_x5enpsnaiso.html

I expected that you will play more, than talk. And, I think, most of us noticed that you don’t listen the metronome.

@AuthenticSound

6 жыл бұрын

I understand, but for some of these Wedn. vids, the theory is the main point. The episodes take about 12-18 hours of production, so adding to that another layer of performing is not always possible. The point here is not the music on its own, but the aspect of that one bar in the context of its time. I actually was playing according to the metronome, you should listen carefully, it is 3 agains 2 with additional rubato, you will notice that from the beginning of the new line, the metronome aligned again

my Englishe are not very good! if i anderstend well Chopin's music is beautifull because modern pianists play too fast! the most stupid thing i ever heard!!

I wish some of these classical music composers could of heard Led Zepplin. One reason I never got into classical music is THESE PEOPLE HAD NO RHYTHM. Rhythm is the foundation of all music. You don’t have rhythm you don’t have any foundation. Without a foundation you have nothing. Thank God for Black people and thier contribution to music. If all we had to listen to today was classical I don’t believe I would be the musicologist I am. Most classical seems so pretentious.

@AuthenticSound

6 жыл бұрын

But it shouldn't be pretentious, certainly not in our age, where the performer is only the 'translator' of what was written before him

@michaelladerman2564

4 жыл бұрын

There's loads of rhythm in classical music. If what you're missing is a drumbeat, that's something else, but since you like Led Zeppelin, definitely listen to some Stravinsky.