Great compilation! It drove home the important points that are so often argued against. Looking forward to your next video.

@gwendolynwyne

20 күн бұрын

Thank you, prayers appreciated!

Gwendolyn, your videos are brilliant! Thank you for telling the truth and bringing this false tradition to light!

@gwendolynwyne

20 күн бұрын

Very kind, I thank God I live in a time when this false tradition is coming to light and that we can see it for what it is!

@Commenter2121

19 күн бұрын

@@gwendolynwyne I agree, it will be interesting to see where things go from here. Even without the debate on Joseph’s polygamy, I seem to think the church will have to confront the questions around polygamy and portions of D&C 132 at some point. I don’t know what that looks like but I honestly feel like clinging on to this tradition to protect our past is holding the church back in a major way.

@gwendolynwyne

18 күн бұрын

@@Commenter2121 Yes I do believe a reckoning has been building over this, and putting it off is counter-productive. I think it's unfortunate that the debate was over Joseph's polygamy, but perhaps that is because it is easier to use the historical narrative we have shored up to "prove" that (and thus polygamy) than to debate whether polygamy is of God and have to confront the possibility that we were led astray.

Gwendolyn, Bravo! As always, your productions and messages are superb. Your lead in from the High Councilor talk was spot on. We need to with confidence and humility and love proclaim this truth. Since I have believed for a couple of decades now that polygamy was and is not of God, and that Joseph and Emma did not practice it, I see that the efforts of Michelle, Whitney, you, and a couple brothers are bolding nudging a long-overdue and honest examination of the facts. I truly think that your efforts are inspired, and I pray that the Lord will continue to inspire you leaders. Every true and inspired effort meets opposition. I am an old geezer who has had ALS for nine years, so it is difficult for me to engage in this important and God-inspired movement directly, but I continue to nudge my family and friends towards this truth. I am forwarding this episode to several dozen good people. Thank you for all you and the others do. God bless you. Jan

@gwendolynwyne

20 күн бұрын

The old geezers are not to be underestimated in this effort! Having seen plenty of change throughout your life, I believe many of you will be a rescuing voice of reason against the opposition that is afraid of change or would prefer to censor the open discussion of these ideas. God bless you, too, Jan. I truly appreciate your support in this.

@vanessapowell3719

11 күн бұрын

Joseph Smith did practice polygamy. Research your own church records. He did divination as well. 😢

@gwendolynwyne

11 күн бұрын

@@vanessapowell3719 I honestly am fine with people believing that he was a polygamist if that is what their honest conclusion is after studying the records (and the lives of the record keepers). But what are your thoughts on polygamy? Do you believe it is, even if only at times, good and Godly?

So great to see this all in one video like this. Thanks!

@gwendolynwyne

20 күн бұрын

Oh I’m you enjoyed it!

Awesome video! I can relate to all 3 of you, haha. I admire so much how you present things in such a loving, positive way. I think the heart of the debate surrounding this comes down to knowing and having one’s own personal relationship with God. When we understand that God is Father and Mother, then our eternal potential is clear, and whatever anybody (including ourselves) ever said or believed that isn’t true starts to fall away. It’s such a gift that we can all ask for and receive answers directly from our Omniscient Creators.

@gwendolynwyne

20 күн бұрын

So beautifully stated 🙏💜🙏

Thank you for this Gwendolyn and the work you do boldly declaring the truth about polygamy 💕 I loved your intro discussion. I have found myself as all of your ladies in these shorts at some point in the last year 😂. It’s been a journey! Having compassion and charity, while sharing important beliefs in a loving way…not always the easiest to navigate, especially when the subject matter reflects the character of God. Looking forward to your next video.

@gwendolynwyne

20 күн бұрын

It is such a journey! And I agree, compassion and charity must be paramount (which I was concerned my portrayal of "church lady" didn't necessarily demonstrate!). Thank you for your kind words💜🙏

Excellent presentation as always! Thank you for shedding light on this and sharing truth!🩷🩷🩷

@gwendolynwyne

20 күн бұрын

You are so welcome, I thank God the light of Christ makes everything so clear 🙏

Thank you, Gwendolyn! So clear! Have you looked at Augusta Cobbs? She was a Cochranite before being baptized into the Church by Samuel Smith. The Cochranites believe in "spiritual wivery". It wasn't polygamy or sealings, they had open marriages is how I was told. Brigham went on missions by himself to area where the Cochranites resided. Augusta left her husband and most of her children for Brigham. Her last child with her husband was named Brigham. The baby died on the trip to Nauvoo, she was with Brigham Young at the time. Brigham was accused by her husband of adultery in a court of law.

@gwendolynwyne

20 күн бұрын

100% 👍 Thank you so much for this comment though because there are a ton of little pieces! Hemlock Knots has quite the info cache.

"All wives matter"!!! 🤣

@StompMom5

21 күн бұрын

IKR 🤣🤣🤣🤣It had me ROTFL 😅😅

One of the things that people forget is that a testimony is saying what you believe to be true. That doesn't mean that what a person testifies about is true, just that it is what they believe to be true.

@StompMom5

20 күн бұрын

Exactly 💯. That's what's so sad. Our church is full of believers of polygamy because of the "testimonies" of women. That's true blind following especially since the "angel" some claimed to see was an angel of the devil

@gwendolynwyne

20 күн бұрын

YES! Even eyewitness testimonies are notoriously unreliable. How much more scrutiny, then, should we give to spiritual testimonies?

Great work, thank you!

@gwendolynwyne

20 күн бұрын

You are very welcome, Gary! 😁

Love this. You lay out so clearly the scriptures that oppose multiple wives. And more fun is the words used by early saints to justify this lifestyle.

@gwendolynwyne

16 күн бұрын

Despite all that flowery language the stark reality of the doctrine really shines through!

I love your videos! Thanks for taking the time to put this together!

@gwendolynwyne

16 күн бұрын

You are very welcome, thank you for watching 💜

This was beautiful and powerful. Thank you, Gwendolyn. 🥰

@gwendolynwyne

18 күн бұрын

Thank you so much 💜

Thank you for your beautiful preface of unity. We need to be reminded of this on a regular basis.

“They built up institutions to gain power” as I’ve learned about the history of the church especially once JS died, outside of a handful of good fruits, I now feel like the lds institution fits this description(although I feel most organised religious institutions fall under this umbrella) I also understand that when the scriptures speak of Gods church, that it means the individuals in all the world regardless of what religion they claim to be, that believe and worship Him and not an organization.

Very good acting!

@gwendolynwyne

20 күн бұрын

Ha, Roadshow skills!

@whyisgamora3721

20 күн бұрын

@@gwendolynwyne You have covered very well many important discussion points on this topic. There is one other point that I see comes up again and again. In fact, it was raised by Jacob Hansen in the Ward Radio debate a few days ago. If the practice of plural marriage by Brigham Young et al was in error, then what does that imply for the Church today in terms of line of authority as so forth. I don't recall if you have covered this or not. I don't see any issue here, but many do. I refer to account of Alma the Elder in contrast with that of king Limhi. Alma, one of the wicked priests of king Noah, had the line of authority as an ordained priest, so that when he repented he was able to baptize into the church etc. King Limhi, a righteous son of king Noah, yet not an ordained priest could not baptize and instead waited on the Lord. It shows to me that iniquity of leaders does not erase line of authority if those ordained in that line repent and return to the Lord. Perhaps you would be able to communicate these things in your effective style. Cheers.

@gwendolynwyne

18 күн бұрын

@@whyisgamora3721 Oh, yes many people have a lot of concern over the implications regarding authority and keys, I agree Alma after leaving King Noah's court and repenting was able to baptize and start a church! 👍 I discussed this I believe in my video on Abinadi and King Noah, but I tend to not spend much time on it because in my mind it's looking at it from the wrong direction: we should not say polygamy is of God because otherwise we wouldn't have authority; rather, we should seek to rid ourselves of any false traditions and behavior that is hindering our ability to exercise authority (per D&C 121 which details what causes heaven to say "Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man"). But I think it's a good point to reiterate, because the perceived implications of loss of authority really prevent a lot of us from considering the fundamental question of whether polygamy is of God or not. Thanks for this.

@whyisgamora3721

17 күн бұрын

@@gwendolynwyne As you point out, it's definitely NOT "polygamy is of God because otherwise we wouldn't have authority." Rather, it is "we have priesthood authority DESPITE the errors of polygamy"---authority, but not priesthood power, which depends individual by individual on repentance and worthiness before God. For example, a son ordained by an ordained yet wicked father still has a line of authority and the son will have priesthood power if he right with the Lord. I agree that is it more important to recognize the truth (that polygamy was an error), do what is right, and let the consequences follow--we have a hymn about this! However, many are unwilling to accept a truth of which they do not like the consequences or which seems to be a trick to lead them astray. I think if more understood at the outset that impurities and imperfections of our leaders have no bearing on priesthood authority (although they do impact priesthood power), then they would be more prepared to see polygamy as the error it is and was. As it stands, there is a defensive instinct to protect leaders from perceived attacks in part as a defense for the Church's standing as the Lord's Church in the last days. Their instinct is justified, in part, because some of the loudest voices rightly pointing out the errors of polygamy in the Church are ALSO promoting the idea that the Church is fallen, lost, and all ordinances they perform today are null and void. It ends up appearing like deception to lead people astray and into a form of evangelical/protestant/spiritualism/etc. rather than clarity to strengthen the unity and love within the Church.

Also you mention that non of us can be gate keepers but that Christ is the gate keeper, which I completely agree with. It’s been interesting for me to understand and learn more about how the church has taken that and so subtly made themselves aka, temple covenants become the gate keeper.

Gwendolyn, thank you once again for concisely presenting the facts. Many years ago as a missionary in Austria, these are the very answers provided to us just in case an investigator ask an uncomfortable question about polygamy. I feel embarrassed now that I was telling these less than truthful answers. Keep doing your excellent videos.

@gwendolynwyne

18 күн бұрын

Speaking from personal experience, I have found that Christ is happy to take all of my embarrassment and shame from off my shoulders. He knows it is part of the human condition to be taught and uphold false traditions and does not condemn us for it. I believe it is more about what we do when we are confronted with our error. Do we close our eyes and stop our ears because we cannot be wrong? Or can we consider whether we have been wrong and then, if we have, gratefully praise the Lord for redeeming us from sin? I am enjoying Vienna on your behalf :) Spring is too beautiful for words, with rain every evening, and new blossoms each day.

@ronaldlowrey8817

18 күн бұрын

@@gwendolynwyne. Thank you. I have returned eight times to my beloved Austria. There is nothing like the history, culture, language, food and scenery. Oh, did I mention the music!!

What a great presentation 👏☄. Bruce R McConkie said pertaining to Brigham Young that God will allow false doctrines within the church as a weeding out process. It's our responsibility to know the nature of God and his all mighty power and divinity. It's up to us to seek truth and be open to new revelation. I didn't watch the ward radio debate but I knew it would be a bl0od bath in the comment section and indeed it was!! Why such intense hatred? The comments were just angry and closed minded

@MommaCrissa

21 күн бұрын

I haven't watched it, but I find Ward Radio doesn't carry the spirit. It's more about getting people to laugh while chopping up pieces of topics they want to throw on the table at any given time. To have the Spirit is the only way people will see truth. Otherwise, it's he-said, she-said or one for all and all for one mentality.

@StompMom5

20 күн бұрын

@MommaCrissa Completely agree!! I used to watch every episode when they first started but once they added Jonah as a regular the attitude of the entire channel changed. It was like adding another Cardon and one was more than enough🙈. They don't take anything seriously but mock those who do. Show is more about ego than anything else

@lindseyloveslearning

20 күн бұрын

I would like to use that quote from McConkie. Could you help me find where it is?

@gwendolynwyne

20 күн бұрын

Wow I also hadn’t heard that by McConkie before, fascinating. The debate…so many thoughts. But I was genuinely relieved they were cool with each other. Even though they totally disagreed and interrupted, neither seemed angry or hurt, just competitive if that makes sense. I think their jujitsu match really contributed. Maybe we can have Brian Hales and Michelle arm wrestle and then try their discussion again 😂🤷‍♀️

@StompMom5

20 күн бұрын

@gwendolynwyne Michelle could blow Hales out of the water! His facts are made up folklore while hers are legit 👌 💯. I'll find that quote again, I just read it couple days ago... shouldn't be hard

As always I appreciate your deep approach to this touchy issue. As you know I was once adamant defender of 19th century polygamy but am now a polygamy denier. I had a romantic view of 19th century polygamy based on false information. My current concern about this issue is that it creates a credibility problem for us. Ignoring the problem is like ignoring a cold. The problem gets worse. As you know I deny that Joseph Smith Junior was a polygamist & blame Brigham Young for instituting it. I believe the outcome of church history would be much better had we never instituted it. Helen Mar Kimball Whitney's justification for polygamy is one I as a male find very unflattering. Was she aware of the fact there were more men in the church than women. A certain # of them by natural laws of demography would not be able to marry. Polygyny only aggravated that problem. How would she propose the behaviour of those men be controlled?

@gwendolynwyne

18 күн бұрын

I too find the pioneer-era Latter-day Saint polygamists' view of men deeply unflattering---offensive actually, as my father, brothers, and husband, as well as the countless good men I have worked with at church and otherwise are nothing like what monogamists are accused of becoming. And interestingly, based on her writings Helen did not seem to be aware that there were more men in Utah. I'm not sure how she missed that but my guess is that as Heber C. Kimball's daughter (and the golden child at that), her social circle was the elite leadership of the church, and the idea that there was too many women was a big part of the justification for polygamy. It is very telling to me that she was not called to testify in the Temple Lot trial, although she was alive, a very active defender of polygamy, and allegedly one of Joseph Smith's wives. That really makes me wonder if someone knew her defenses would quickly and easily be dismantled. Another justification she offered that I didn't go into in my video was that great men were always polygamists, that it was a natural result of high achievement and greater acquisition. This is in some ways true but perhaps "great" would be better defined as "powerful according to the standards of the natural man." She offered no idea for the very real problem of how to manage the behavior of men who could not marry. I cannot find good fruit on any level. And yep we are in alignment on the church history. Repentance is real, but I don't know that it is a real option in our minds, collectively and institutionally. I am concerned that we are going to see Isaiah 30 fulfilled: "Wherefore thus saith the Holy One of Israel, Because ye despise this word, and trust in oppression and perverseness, and stay thereon: Therefore this iniquity shall be to you as a breach ready to fall, swelling out in a high wall, whose breaking cometh suddenly at an instant" (Isaiah 30:12-13, and as always, reading the context of the surrounding verses makes this even more sobering, in my opinion).

Beautiful video! I always (nearly always love your content. Could you tell me if you go to the temple? Do you think you'd ever do videos on the temple? I thought it was interesting that you talked aboutthe friendly way Jacob and Jacob debated. I couldn't believe that everybody was unilaterally declaring brother Hamlin the winner!??? I just don't see it. It looked to me like brother Isbell displayed much charity in his interaction and it was really hard to watch brother Hamlin's uncharitable body language and harsh demeanor. I felt that brother Isbell displayed a lot more charity and forbearance than I could have.

@MichaelEllisYT

20 күн бұрын

I don't mean to offend. But I want to observe that your defense of Brother Isbell is entirely based on appearance and emotion rather than doctrine and scripture.

@gwendolynwyne

20 күн бұрын

Haha (“nearly always” 😉) I think maybe I’ve seen other videos of Jacob Hansen where he comes across contentious and quite harsh, so comparatively speaking in this debate he just seemed competitive (to me), and I did think he defended his position very well. The temple is a longer conversation, because I am one of those women who experienced deep and regular pain in my temple experiences due to the patriarchal and specifically polygamous framework that I could clearly hear, which was very dissonant to my spirit. I went for the first time not because of mission or marriage, only because I loved the Lord and wanted to bind myself closer to Him, but especially after getting married found it quite excruciating, and spent years and years working on getting myself right with the rightness of the temple/shelving/ancestor research/shelving/working/etc. In all that struggle I had so so many experiences that showed me God was aware of me, loved me, and that this was not a case of me being 100% wrong and the temple being 100% right. With all that, I now live in a country with no temple, so I have not been since moving here in January (though I am able to go, and was fully transparent with my leaders in our interview). I have no plans nor desire to make a temple video because I do not feel at all settled about it. Something is deeply wrong, I believe, if any of our temple theology or practice is built on polygamy. However, I do not believe the whole thing should be thrown out because there is a great deal of scriptural support for it, and in this dispensation the Kirtland temple dedication was a Pentecostal experience, so there’s something there. Perhaps it is as it was in Jesus’ day, when not all is well with His Father’s house, and He will cleanse it Himself.

That was a great intro. From my perspective this contention is exactly what happens when we abandon God's Torah, either through overwriting it with our own traditions like the Jews, or pretending that Jesus abolished it like Christians. By abandoning God's Law we lose the common moral and legal framework upon which God's works are established. People are free to be blown around by every wind of doctrine. We see this so prevalent in Christianity where various sects pick and choose what parts of the Old Testament to believe. Then they fight over which cherry picked doctrine is correct. It will be impossible to come to unity if we continue to reject God's Torah which is His standard that He prophesied must be written in our hearts in order to bring the New Covenant to fruition. I think in large part the monogamy-only crowd are good, well intentioned people. I also think they actually want to live moral lives. The issue, I believe, is that they tend to put their emotions above the Word. If polygyny feels uncomfortable then any hint of monogamy in the scriptures is found and put forth as the end of the pro-polygyny perspective. I don't know if they can say those on our side are good and well intentioned, because the pro-polygyny side is constantly accused of being lustful adulterers. My reason for being pro-polygyny is because I believe God meant what He said in the Bible. And it is my desire to unapologetically live my life in accordance with His Laws and Commandments. This desire is rooted in the two great commandment, Love God, and Love your neighbor. The way we do that is spelled out in the Torah and exemplified in the life of Christ. I don't believe it is our place to make up our own definition of "love" based on societal expectations and then pretend that what God wants. Love must be defined according to God's Law. That is the reason I hold the position that I do. People can call me a vile adulterer, or a wicked lustful man all they want. But my objective, as I'm sure is the same for the monogamy-only side, is to live a life that is pleasing to God. So that God will say to me "well done my good and faithful servant."

@godsoffspring4195

20 күн бұрын

Amen.

@gwendolynwyne

18 күн бұрын

Thanks so much for this comment, Michael. Our divergence really does come down to the Law of Moses as described in the Bible vs the Book of Mormon. I think the interpretations that I have offered in my other videos of Biblical OT scriptures which have commonly been used to defend/promote polygyny make more sense because of what they take into account, but I respect that for those that don't believe in the Book of Mormon that is a non-starter. Frankly, although I believe polygyny is a perversion of God's establishment of marriage, I also believe that "committing" it according to the pro-polygyny interpretation of Torah produces the least bad fruit (same with slavery). I guess that's not a very good concession, haha, but I hope it is clear that I don't think polygamists are evil, or necessarily lustful. I think the doctrine and physical work of polygyny works against holiness, and leads men and women away from the true and living God, whose image and likeness is an equal balance of 1 man and 1 woman.

@godsoffspring4195

18 күн бұрын

@@gwendolynwyne Can I ask you a few questions, Gwen?? How come in your mind, it must be the OT teachings vs the Book of Mormon teaching when the BoM is entirely pro Old Testament and praises the prophets and all the wisdom in it? Seems to me, that's exactly what the superstitious Christians do when they try to excuse the Book of Mormon and pit the Bible only against it. Where I come from, it's realized that the correct equation is always the Bible added with the BoM. Interlocking in harmony. Likewise it should be Old Testament with the Book of Mormon. Not against it. Ten times out of ten that's always the way it works out sooner for some and later for others. 😇

@gwendolynwyne

18 күн бұрын

@@godsoffspring4195 Oh, it's because the Book of Mormon is 100% against polygamy, and offers anti-polygamy interpretations of the Law of Moses which I believe are actually compatible with the Old Testament. I agree they are interlocking and in harmony, as Lehi quoted Joseph of Egypt, who prophesied that those two witnesses "shall grow together, unto the confounding of false doctrines and laying down of contentions, and establishing peace among the fruit of thy loins, and bringing them to the knowledge of their fathers in the latter days, and also to the knowledge of my covenants, saith the Lord" (2 Nephi 3:12). To me it is pretty clear that polygamy is a false doctrine, and I think we should be very grateful for that, for I do not know any woman who aspires to be a multiple wife or concubine, nor do I know of any good fruits of polygamy that can be demonstrated statistically. Not only that, but is an absolute violation of the golden rule, which Christ taught is the law and the prophets. So it actually makes more sense that it's not of God, and that the traditions of men in this fallen world have blinded us to the truth. Remember the Old Testament covenant people who believed in polygamy did not have Christ's words as we do now, and their beliefs led them to ultimately be scattered and destroyed. Enoch's people who were taken up have only monogamy implied, and the Book of Mormon people (post-Christ's visit) established Zion with explicit descriptions of monogamy only. If you believe in the Book of Mormon, blessedly it resolves this issue.

@godsoffspring4195

18 күн бұрын

@@gwendolynwyne Hmmm... Well if I remember correctly you forgot to get back to me regarding Jacob 2 verse 30 where the Lord say [very clearly] that monogamy was the way to go for the people at the time "OTHERWISE" He would let them know if and when it's time to partake of plural unions once again and raise up seed (warp speed ) within His church. Thus like we've all been saying and surly evident in the OT AND the BoM that plural unions are smiled upon by God when HE sees fit. Not when we say so or not. By the way... the Jaredites were polygamists too. Only the wicked were condemned by the Lord for doing so. Not the Righteous. :>) Many of the men had large numbers of sons and daughters. For example, the brother of Jared had 22 sons and daughters (Ether 6:20) and Orihah had 31 sons and daughters (Ether 7:2). Riplakish had "many wives and concubines" (Ether 10:5). He was condemned by the Lord for his wickedness, but it is not clear whether or not this condemnation was because of his "many wives." In Ether 14:2 it states that "every man kept the hilt of his sword in his right hand, in the defence of his property and his own life and of his wives and children." This verse seems to indicate that the people practiced polygamy, but whether or not it was sanctioned by the Lord is not made clear in the record.

i think everyone shal live the life that suits them best, its just one thing that bother my mind about polygami, and i m not trying to be funny, but is there enough women for all the men?? or is it normal that many men want to stay single??

@MichaelEllisYT

5 күн бұрын

Your question is based on several assumptions. 1. Polygyny means all men need to have more than one wife. 2. All men need to be paired of with all women. The first assumption is false. God approving polygyny just means that it is an option, not a requirement. So some men will have more than on, some will have one, some will have none. It just depends on the personality and qualities of the man and what God has planned for him. 2nd assumption is also false because while there is roughly a 1/1 ration of males and females not everyone is at the same place in life. Men have a higher mortality rate than women, etc. there are so many factors that build in a cushion for polygyny that's the straight numbers game doesn't provide.

@chriskvande8900

5 күн бұрын

@@MichaelEllisYT thank you so much for answering me, lots of love from Norway.

❤❤❤

You assume Adam and Eve were monogamous yet incest at the time was evident. The law of Moses and the seven brothers scenario also supports plural marriage unless of course one would also assume it only applied if all seven brothers were single. There sure is a lot of private interpretation of scripture going on here. :>)

@gwendolynwyne

20 күн бұрын

I’m not sure what you’re trying to communicate about Adam and Eve, who yes I do look at as a pattern set forth by God, but In the first Biblical example of Levirate marriage, both brothers of the deceased man are unmarried. As I spoke about in my video on the Law of Moses, I know people who did not want to come up to meet God, and who were eventually destroyed/scattered, _believed_ God justified polygamy. I do not think the fruits of it justify their belief. Jesus Christ was the One who said that marriage is between “twain.” Hard to get a more authoritative interpretation than that.

@godsoffspring4195

20 күн бұрын

@@gwendolynwyne You said Adam and Eve were monogamous. You don't know that. You don't know if Adam also took a daughter to wife or if his sons and daughters procreated with each other or not including plural marriages should one of Adam's sons have died and another son took his brother's wife along with his own wife. Why would you say Adam was monogamous ?

@gwendolynwyne

20 күн бұрын

@@godsoffspring4195 Just going by Genesis 2:24 “Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.” Adam pretty clearly signifies that he understands the commandment to have 1 wife.

@godsoffspring4195

20 күн бұрын

@@gwendolynwyne ... That statement can be true two, three, four......multiple times. It's not a verse that concludes one wife only. Each time a man and a woman physically combine in procreation. One flesh becomes of it. A child is born. Some times two or more. YIKES... how we gunna work that one out. LOL Anyway... the scriptures are clear. When God says so... plural marriage is condoned. When He says not to, so be it. Read Jacob 2 27-30 Take special note of the last verse, please. For some reason YT won't let me post the scripture.

@MichaelEllisYT

19 күн бұрын

​@@godsoffspring4195 Exactly. Two becoming one flesh is not a statement of exclusivity. It's basically saying "there will only be two people in this contract." It's not saying you can only have one contract.

I'm with Michelle Stone with polygamy never being commanded of God. And I was happily with her for 2 months that Joseph never practiced polygamy until reading Morminism Unveiled where John D Lee outlined how Hyrum Smith told the Danites in Nauvoo not to go after an apparent adulterer because he was practicing the new church doctrine of plural marriage. John D Lee was a firm enemy of Brigham Young at that time and had every motivation to blame Brigham for polygamy. After that book I decided to read the Expositor for myself. And I was stunned to see the affidavits on page 2 on the right were largely accurate summaries of 132 that they testified Hyrum read to them in the High Council in July of 1843. Since then I've studied alot of other material on Joseph's polygamy. And I'm 99.94% convinced Joseph also fell in the trap of polygamy like so many others in positions of authority. I ask that you and Michelle include polygamy deniers like me who accept that Joseph also practiced it but DENY GOD EVER COMMANDED HIM TO DO IT. Please don't be blinded by Michelle's painting Joseph white and Brigham black. Brigham and Joseph were highly flawed compared to the being we are ultimately to follow: Jesus Christ. Joseph related to William Mark's just before his death that his promotion of polygamy was mistake and a curse and would prove the Downfall of the church. It certainly led to Joseph's loss of spiritual protection and early death.

There ya go. John 17 : 21-23. For those who have difficulty within unity of proper plural marriage should simply stay away from it and stop condemning those who have or will succeeded at it. That is how you can remain one with everyone in the church past, present and future and stop the division. It is not those who support eternal plural marriage causing the contention and division. It is the naysayers. This is not really that difficult. :>)

@gwendolynwyne

20 күн бұрын

I do not condemn anyone who has been deceived by this “doctrine of devils,” as Samuel Smith called it when he came across it on his first mission. I was deceived too. I thank God this has no part in the oneness that awaits women in eternity.

@godsoffspring4195

20 күн бұрын

@@gwendolynwyne .. Gweyn to believers of plural marriage when God says so: " you partake in doctrine of devils".... but Gwen says... "I do not condemn anyone" I say.... WHAT???? 🤔

@gwendolynwyne

20 күн бұрын

@@godsoffspring4195 God did not send His son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. We are in a fallen world and have all fallen short, we have all to one extent or another partaken of evil-me, you, prophets, everyone. I am grateful that Christ is our Redeemer, and that He was willing to shed His blood for me, and that we are not eternally cast out despite our unworthiness. That’s all I am trying to say.

@godsoffspring4195

20 күн бұрын

@@gwendolynwyne Well I say amen to that much. 😇😃

@gwendolynwyne

20 күн бұрын

@@godsoffspring4195 Ha, very glad we can agree on that!🙌

You and Michelle do much good showing polygamy was not commanded of God and why it was not only Joseph who was to blame for its practice. But you both do a horrible disservice denying the overwhelming evidence Joseph was also part of it. Start with just making a thorough review of the affidavits in the Nauvoo Expositor with complete honesty to see 132 came from Joseph in 1843. Stop rejecting affidavits of Joseph's polygamy because the person was either a Brighamite or apostate. Otherwise, who do you have left? Michelle constantly says she cannot accept the testimony of John C Bennett and William Law and Sydney Rigdon and others who did not stay fully loyal to Joseoh. But then she rejects the Brighamite testimonies of those who did stay loyal to Joseph Smith. Leaving her left with only accepting Joseph, Emma, and Hyrum's public statements. Not seeing that none of those 3 had any motivation or reason to admit Joseph's polygamy publicly So please accept Michelle Stone as the ultimate 🍒 picker. She is convincing no serious historians who know the most about Joseph's life that Joseph was not a polygamist. And even most of her 100 000 subscribers are not fully convinced Joseph was not a polygaist. What they are convinced of is polygamy was never commanded of God. I wish you and Michelle could focus on that. And stop focusing on your false message that "polygamy was bad because Joseph did not sanction it." (When under temptation of the common flesh he did.) Basically you imply that if Joseph did sanction it then it would have been good (even though you don't mean to.) Your and Michelle's message would be 10 times more credible if you simply focused on polygamy not being of God period. No matter which fallible man or men were respinsible for it. And you would take the focus off of fallible men (like Joseph and Brigham) and back on the female (and male) victims of this sad practice.

@StompMom5

20 күн бұрын

You seem very aggressive in your attempt to change the minds of those who have actually done the work on this subject because you read a book. Really? You read a book and now you're a professor on the topic? You spam comments on every channel by the multiple dozens because you read a book. Why don't you start your own channel? Honest question too... I've never seen someone so eager to prove their point that they completely dominate the entire comment section on multiple channels. You seem like you'd be a good KZreadr. Give it a go

@gwendolynwyne

20 күн бұрын

@jaredvaughan1665 Going to try and address both of your comments here! First, I am so SO grateful you see that polygamy is not of God/never commanded by God. Because the doctrine of many wives and concubines inflicted upon me the greatest psychological pain of my life, and it was almost always impressed upon me by men, it truly is a healing gift to me personally when a brother in the church recognizes that it's wrong, period. I feel like, on Joseph, you have aligned Michelle and I more than we are. The entire focus of my youtube series, the reason I wrote my paper which I'm using as the framework for it, is that polygamy is not part of women's divine nature nor destiny. Having an incorrect understanding of God's daughters is a fundamental flaw that affects the walk, sight, hearing, speech, etc of the body of Christ. I personally feel called to speak to who women truly are, and since polygamy clouds our vision in that regard to a profound degree, I am making these videos. (I also thought it was horrible that Michelle was getting so much cultural pushback to her message that polygamy is an abomination, and I chose to put my voice out there as another witness of this truth.) Re: Joseph: Not one of my videos has been about Joseph, but the church has wrapped polygamy up with Joseph Smith's calling as the prophet of the Restoration so tightly that there are many(!) church members that won't even consider "polygamy is an abomination" because of what they believe it would mean about Joseph, and the church he founded. For many people, though, considering that perhaps Joseph didn't start polygamy helps them consider that maybe it's not of God. I never had any reason to believe Joseph wasn't a polygamist--everybody knows he was--until I started reading the opposing evidence. Now, I am not as historically inclined as I am theologically, and my educational training has given me respect for the academic process and caution at making claims that go against consensus, so you may not have noticed but nowhere in my videos do I deny that Joseph was a polygamist. He might have been. I genuinely don't know. But I have decided I will no longer accuse him, and where it exists I will look for and point out to others the possibility that he may not be what he has been accused of. For me it is a matter of following the Golden Rule. And to be totally honest I actually think the entire mess makes more sense if he wasn't. Not sure if you've read Carol Lynn Pearson's The Ghost of Eternal Polygamy but in that book she weaves together current and past polygamy pain and makes this exact case that you're inclined toward, that Joseph was simply wrong in doing this; not evil, just wrong, and we can be more loving if we'll let this mistake go. So this concept has been out there for some years now. Personally, though I am very grateful for Sis Pearson's work, I found the story to be awful. To much to explain in a comment but it just didn't ring true to me at all. Years later, when I came across the anti-polygamy evidence/ideas, that story did. I really appreciate your comments and want you to know that after reading them I made some additions to my notes for my next video, to make it more clear that I am not saying Joseph wasn't a polygamist, just that I personally do not think that story makes as much sense. I am totally fine with people believing polygamy was/is wrong and Joseph unfortunately was a polygamist. I have high-fived many of my girlfriends who have him in the doghouse because we set that aside and say, either way, polygamy is wrong. If that is where you have landed I'm happy to high-five you too and agree on what really matters.

@gwendolynwyne

20 күн бұрын

@@StompMom5 I think Jared got slammed with the polygamy paradigm shift and is just processing. There’s so much betrayal when you look deeply at the historical sources (I know you you). Honestly I take it as a 100% 🙏🙏🙏 that he sees polygamy is wrong. If everyone can agree on this and keep the love we will figure this out, God-willing.

@MichaelEllisYT

20 күн бұрын

While I disagree with your premise I do agree that Joseph Smith is a side point in the discussion on polygyny. That's why I have no firm conclusions about that matter other than if Joseph Smith taught against polygyny he was wrong. He was wrong about a lot of other things too.

@StompMom5

19 күн бұрын

@gwendolynwyne Maybe.... but what you explained to him, Michelle has gone over multiple times while he was degrading her findings to "emotional bias" On multiple comments, I mean dozens.... on many videos. So.....I'm not so sure it's as innocent🧐🤔