The arab archery talks about these fire basket arrows: The third is the shooting of flaming arrows, which are called spindle-shaped, and are used for incendiary purposes, to set fire to the place where they fall. Such arrows are made by constructing a hollow arrowhead consisting of a number of tubes the ends of which are brought together. The interior of the arrowhead should be hollow, like the interior of the spindles women use. This is why it is called spindle-shaped. It should also have a cylindrical extension into which the shaft is inserted. You mix some straw and cotton together and make them into a ball. Then you saturate the ball with tar and insert it into the hollow of the arrowhead. Then you bring it next to a flame, and shoot it as soon as it begins to burn. It will spring into a flaming projectile and will start a fire wherever it falls. You may also take some otter fat, wax, black sulphur, bdellium gum [Webster's International Dictionary: "A gum resin obtained from Cammiphora africana, similar to myrrh and used for the same purposes."], the pith of fresh cherry seeds-if you cannot obtain this, you may use coconut milk, and if this is not to be found, you may use the sap of wild figs-and a piece of quicklime untouched by water; you then grind the whole together, knead the mass with pure oil of balsam, roll it into small, pebble-like granules, and dry them. When you wish to shoot, sprinkle the granules with powdered black sulphur and shoot them with a stiff, strong bow, at night or by day, without bringing them next to a flame or fire. As each travels through the air it springs into flame. Al-Ṭābari has declared this to be true and that it has been practiced by experts in Egypt.

@tods_workshop

4 ай бұрын

Thanks so much Thomas. Thanks for educating me and providing exactly the sort of information I was looking for. Also Jenshoffmann3188 wrote "Ok Tod....there is a complete cage bolt at coburg castle (Bavaria ,Germany) WITH(!) incendiary mass and fuses. Probably 14th century." There is lots to talk about here, but basically we can start with "Tod is wrong" and they really are about fire. The Arabic/lime recipe I struggle with but any chemists out there please have your say. Otherwise not quite yet, but soon I will go and play with these and find out what I can. It seems some lower grade compounds may have been used, but the mention of fuses suggests something more complex. Interesting.

@nighthunter3039

4 ай бұрын

​​​ @tods_workshop unactivated lime is actually quite reactive. It starts a highly exothermic reaction if combined with sulfur. Irc lime can be used to produce potassium chlorate wich was used in earlyer versions of chemical matches wich you light up by dipping them in sulfuricacid. It produces highly toxic fumes and in combination with water is used as what is known as "lime sulfur dip" for pestcontrol. To get back to the point: it basically is a chemical fuse. A negative to this sadly is that you can't test it out in a video because possession and deliberate use of potassium chlorate is as far as I know illegal. If anyone noticed I made a mistake somewhere feel free to correct me.

@thomaskurz5617

4 ай бұрын

@@tods_workshop Glad I was of help. The Arab Archer is a good reference also if you want to look about strange arrows and how they might have been used.or weird ways to shoot a bow. But keep in mind while it is a history source from around 1500 it was written by a scholar and not an archer, so he might not have seen some things he lakts about but also only heard that from second hand sources. I looked in the Apendix where the translators made some clarifications about themes, but they did not provide a recipe for fire arrows.

@jritchey267

4 ай бұрын

@@tods_workshop Something to consider: with the resins in the mix, is this a viscous compound so that when it impacts at temperature and the head collapses as you hypothesized, it acts like napalm--squelching out and sticking to whatever it splatters?

@ClintDalrymple

4 ай бұрын

​@@jritchey267It's possible, but I suspect the resins are acting as a low water binder instead. Bdellium can get fairly hard and shatter, and sap of wild figs is full of latex. Chemically I'm not sure about this mix catching fire in air, but it would be fairly nasty and likely catch fire if it hit something wet

At Duncarron Medieval Village we looked at the Fire Basket arrows and came to the conclusion that they were best used for toasting marshmallows 🤔😉

@1Mutton1

4 ай бұрын

They had marshmallows back then? 😅

@patrickdix772

4 ай бұрын

​@1Mutton1 of course they had the marsh mallow plant, which was used in both herbalism, cooking in general, and confections. Modern marshmallows were originally made with sap from the marsh mallow combined with whipped egg whites and sugar. Modern marshmallows mostly use gelatin (from animals) instead of the marsh mallow sap. There's evidence of the marsh mallow being used in cooking back to the Egyptians and Romans, and the version that led to the to the modern version was invented by the French in 1700s (the earliest recorded recipe i found reference to is 1757).

@HansWurst1569

4 ай бұрын

@@patrickdix772 This was my Today I Learned fact of the day haha!

@MikaelKKarlsson

4 ай бұрын

Blessed be the marshmallow makers!

@1Mutton1

4 ай бұрын

@@patrickdix772 there ya go. Learn something new every day.

Something I would like to point out (though this is very recent history for an example and I am going off the assumption humans are consistent in general behavior) during WW2 things like the Russian 76mm Zis-3 and the US 75mm guns were considered Anti-Tank weapons despite not being particularly good at the job but they were better than nothing so they still got used that way all the time. I think the same can be said for the short bodkin, just because it can't reliably penetrate plate armor doesn't mean that it wasn't intended to fight plate armor but rather that it was the best design they could come up with to counter plate armor using the weapons they had available. with the absence of a perfect solution you will always adopt a "good enough" solution to increase your chances.

@Specter_1125

4 ай бұрын

Yeah, no matter what equipment an archer’s got, they’ve got a severe problem when it comes to fighting men in full plate, so any little bit helps.

@celioambrosi-santamaria

4 ай бұрын

That actually sounds like a really reasonable assumption.

@dominuslogik484

4 ай бұрын

@@celioambrosi-santamaria thanks, glad to hear it makes sense to someone other than me haha

@zerentheunskilled

4 ай бұрын

It goes through mail and cloth easily enough and sometimes even can get through plate. If I was an archer lacking something that could reliably get to my enemies, I'd certainly take the option that can sometimes do it. Y'know, God is on your side and not your enemies, so certainly He will make your arrow get through when it counts!

@dominuslogik484

4 ай бұрын

@@zerentheunskilled like my WW2 example, just because I know the chance is unlikely I would be damned if I wasn't going to at least try the best I could haha.

Ok Tod....there is an complete cage bolt at coburg castle (Bavaria ,Germany) WITH(!) incendiary mass and fuses. Probably 14th century.

@patrickhardin5356

4 ай бұрын

I was going to say, if the cage was intended as a delivery system, it could carry all sorts of things, like a powder charge or Greek fire.

@tods_workshop

4 ай бұрын

Thanks Jens, that is very interesting and I will go and have a look. Really appreciate this and the comment section is exactly what is great about this channel

Theory for fire basket arrows I've heard is that they weren't for hitting anything, but used for signalling. For example, to an army around a castle. Akin to a "Ye olde flare gun", which might be why so few are found or exist in artwork, and why the bodkin point is so simple on the end.

@krissteel4074

4 ай бұрын

My theory is you could pack it with cloth soaked in tar or pitch or even oil, wrap up the gooey mess, set it on fire and you could deliver quite a nasty and volatile problem in someone else's backyard. The signal flare is something I quite like as well

@PRC533

4 ай бұрын

This was exactly my first thought, that it wasn't meant to impact anything in particular. That said, I still don't think it explains why they would use such a difficult to make (and presumably expensive as a result) tool when some of the more basic versions could do the job about as well. I don't see any particular advantage to the basket style unless it was to hold something very specific.

@AndyViant

4 ай бұрын

@@PRC533 I thought the whole point would be to have the head collapse and spread the incendiary material like a grenade for more potential targets. I see little point in it for land based combat, as a thatched roof is a big target to hit and fairly soft. But for it to hit the deck of a ship and the cage collapse and spray sparks and hot coals on what is basically a floating piece of tinder full of petrochemicals, explosives, canvas and rope? Seems like an ideal use.

@AndyViant

4 ай бұрын

@@krissteel4074 for a signal flare it might work too in that when it landed the cage would collapse and there would potentially be chemicals that could be wrapped that in such a way that it would take the cage's destruction to add them to the fire? Maybe a small glass vial with a particular chemical would mean that the flares could burst with specific colours when they impacted? I still see them more like an incendiary grenade trying to start fires, but the flare idea makes sense too.

@The_Bookman

4 ай бұрын

I can't help but imagine some sort of very sticky incendiary squishing out to make solid contact with whatever you want to burn. They are very interesting.

As modern hunters in the American South (Appalachia) we still use those bird hunting & thumpper type heads for turkeys, rabbits etc to this day & im sure other places do as well. Those blunted heads arent just good for training. You can kill a small animal without harming the hide using blunt force.

The blunt headed arrows could also perhaps be used if you were in the business of collecting undamaged pelts, almost certainly got enough energy at short range to brain something a bit bigger than a rabbit

@MrBottlecapBill

4 ай бұрын

They won't be undamaged. You dont' need an arrow head at all for most small game. Just a plain shaft will still go right through rabbits and birds with even a very lite bow or crossbow. Having a metal head of some kind however, will help make sure the arrow is more durable.

@DjDolHaus86

4 ай бұрын

@@MrBottlecapBill The point is not to go through them so the pelt is undamaged, hence the big blunt head

@AlbertaGeek

4 ай бұрын

Undamaged pelts is why critters with desirable fur were trapped, not hunted.

@DjDolHaus86

4 ай бұрын

@@AlbertaGeek While I don't disagree that trapping is an effective way of doing the job it's not the only way. If you've got a common critter with desirable fur such as squirrels, for instance, you could make a bunch of traps and place them in various trees and come back to check them in the hope that the crows haven't beaten you to the prize or you could just wander round the woods with a bow while setting traps for other, easier to catch, critters and take a shot at any squirrels you see in the foliage with your relatively easy to make blunt arrows. You get a bit of bonus meat for the pot and a pelt you can sell/trade for top value.

@CIC-qm9zt

4 ай бұрын

Hello fellow RDR2 player. Lol

This video makes me wish video games incorporated more variety in their archery ammunition, other than just "armor piercing arrow", "explosive arrow", "incendiary arrow", etc. It's crazy how much variety in performance you get can from just using different shapes for metal arrowheads even whilst using the same exact materials.

@MonkeyChessify

4 ай бұрын

I feel the same but it just adds too much complexity unless you have some niche bow & arrow specific game. Same reason all weapons do kinda similar things just called slashing/piercing/bludgeoning without many mechanical diffs in most games.

@RyzawaVT

4 ай бұрын

@@MonkeyChessify That's kind of what I was thinking, a game focused on Archery, I do agree that it could be overbearing in most games that happen to have a bow.

@angrypotato_fz

4 ай бұрын

Like Sniper Elite, but Archer Elite? That... could work. And Jason Kingsley is a CEO who could develop a medieval game :D

@F1ghteR41

4 ай бұрын

Were people actually carrying a wide variety of arrows at one time though? Western European quivers, as far as I get it, weren't set up for arrow selection, and it looks like your average levied or mercenary archer would just shoot whatever arrows he was provided with, aside from a small handful of hunting and practice arrows of his own property. In Eastern Europe and Western Asia situation was likely different, at the very least post-Mongol invasion, due to different quiver construction that presented arrows heads up, but that kinda limits the setting and the pool of writers who could devise a story in such a setting.

I must say I loath adverts, though being interrupted by the guy selling his own wares is 100% fine. Well done Tod for your videos and your adverts that are informative and on topic.

@tods_workshop

4 ай бұрын

Thanks for not being offended - it all helps

@2bingtim

3 ай бұрын

If tv etc ads were more about ancient/medieval weapons & armour I'd enjoy them rather than loathe them.

A few things to consider both in favor of and against the use of blunt wooden heads as practice heads, from a reasonably experienced hobbyist longbow and period crossbow archer: As compared to the larger hunting broadheads, the blunts would almost definitely do less damage over time to most sorts of archery targets. However, the needle bodkins are similar enough to modern field points that they would probably cause less wear and tear on softer butts (heh), such as loose straw bales, as compared to the blunts. A hunter who has a sheaf of hunting broadheads might have blunts for practice, while a military archer with a quiver full of needle bodkins might prefer using those instead. If shooting at a harder butt, such as the wrapped rope style Todd uses, I'd be very concerned about the blunt headed arrow breaking against the target, especially at close range or if using a heavier bow. While the shafts are less expensive, if you break one on every few shots you would very quickly negate any cost saved on the cheaper heads. Losing arrows is an excellent point - however, most experienced archers I know (including myself) tend to suffer many more arrows broken than lost when shooting at a target, especially at closer ranges. In that case, the head - by far the most valuable part of the arrow - can be removed and repurposed fairly easily, even if riveted to the shaft. As all of us archers know, losing arrows that burrow in the grass is simply part of the hobby. However, simple measures, such as a small berm behind the target or keeping the grass trimmed short (local sheep or cattle, provided the butts are located on the village common land) are a great aid in finding missed arrows. I've shot at ranges where I've lost more arrows in a month than I have at better laid out ranges in an entire year. Furthermore, if a single lost arrow represents a significant monetary investment - especially if that investment can be reclaimed even if the arrow is broken - the person who lost it will be a great deal more stubborn in looking for it after practice than the average modern archer who might spend 100$-200$ on a dozen mid-to-high-end arrows that will last them the entire year. While this doesn't entirely explain the dearth of archaeological evidence of metal arrowheads, it does make a decent start. There are historical accounts of archers being severely wounded or killed after accidents at the butts - I suggest starting with The History Squad's video on the subject (kzread.info/dash/bejne/hoejyNOwc9bandI.html) , and if you're interested further, checking out the article "Archery Practice in Early Tudor England" by Steven Gunn, for more examples. Even the summaries of these events I've heard of generally describe penetrating injuries much more in line with metal heads than wood. Maybe the people irresponsible enough to be involved in such accidents were more likely to take the risk of using metal heads for practice? It might have been the period equivalent of bringing broadheads to a field points only range - a little reckless perhaps, but generally tolerated as long as they provided their own targets. I think an explanation that decently fits the evidence might be that most archers used metal points when practicing at closer ranges, where the arrow shaft would be less likely to break as compared to using a blunt head and where there would be less chance of losing the arrow after a missed shot. For longer, riskier shots, the wooden arrowheads might have been used instead to mitigate the risk of losing an expensive arrow in tall grass. I'd love to see those wooden heads tested at different ranges and against different types of practice targets - perhaps it could be called "Arrows vs Targets"? I'd definitely watch that.

@erikhoff5010

4 ай бұрын

Excellent!

@mtgAzim

4 ай бұрын

Something I would do to find lost arrows, is I'd use an old arrow to kind of scrape into the grass at a perpendicular angle to which I was shooting, and then lift up. Almost like if you were going to flip a pancake. You'd scrape your spatula underneath, and then lift from the rear. Doing this found many of my arrows, and many of other people's arrows as well. I had an old quiver packed with mismatched arrows that I'd dug out of the grass. Obviously shooting a bunch of old mismatched arrows doesn't help you hone your skills, but they're great for teaching new shooters the fundamentals, and a few of those lost and founds even informed me on purchasing new arrows. A few of them were really excellent despite being buried in grass and dirt for God knows how long, and I'd never have known of them or gotten to try them if I hadn't found them. But just a disclaimer for anyone who might actually try this, be weary of fiberglass or carbon shafts. They can fray and splinter if broken, and you can really do a number on yourself if you draw one from the ground not knowing that it's broken. I once had one tag the metal frame behind a hay bail, and I withdrew it with my other hand against the bail, and it filled my thumb full of carbon splinters that I had to extract with a swiss army knife and my teeth. Kinda sucked.

@whirving

4 ай бұрын

maybe a local youngster would be handy to do that with a rake? @@mtgAzim

@tods_workshop

4 ай бұрын

HI Russ, Thanks for the thoughts and I have just read a synopsis of coroner's reports about archery deaths and there is some good stuff there and talks of wound depths, but not of arrow types - more to come

Tod you’re pretty much right about the hunting broadhead. Not only do they make a wider wound channel allowing it to bleed out faster, the shape allows em to keep cutting flesh and organs and doing more damage even after the arrow has stopped.

@tods_workshop

4 ай бұрын

Thanks and good to know I was on the right track

On the subject of lighter weight arrows being able to pierce armor, many militaries, such as the Ottomans and Mongols used significantly lighter arrows than those of the English. Turkish war arrows were 20-40 grams and shot from bows of similar strength to the Mary Rose longbows (Karpowicz, Adam. Ottoman Bows - an assessment of draw weight, performance, and tactical use). I personally believe it unlikely that their arrows would pierce plate, but they certainly were effective enough for their time period. While we have less definitive weights for their arrows afaik, the Mongols and other steppe people also used light arrows to great effect. A really interesting passage that touches on this subject-- and related ones of arrow construction, is found in the records of John of Plano Carpini (discussing how to fight the Tartars (Mongols)) "the heads of the arrows for both bows and cross-bows ought to be tempered after the Tartar fashion, in salt water when they are hot, to make them hard enough to pierce the Tartar armour. They should also have swords and lances with a hook to drag the Tartars from their saddle, for they fall off very easily; knives, and cuirasses of a double thickness, for the Tartar arrows do not easily pierce such" (Dawson translation) It was written significantly before agincourt, and the armor discussed would have been lamellar or chainmail, but it recognizes that Mongol arrows, which were quite light, required more protection than was commonly worn to stop. On this note as a whole, I'd love to see some interaction/discussion with scholars that focus on non-European arms/armor. I'm sure there would be a lot of interesting knowledge to be gained.

The first time I saw that basket Arrow was in a "Lillian and Fred Funcken" book about Medieval Arms and Armour. Unfortunately my entire collection of these books burned down with my house a 9 years ago. And if I remember correctly, it was claimed that these Basket Fire Arrows were a medieval type of "flare-gun". Obviously, as teenagers, we had to find out if you can do that, and it worked. Although we used crayons, sugar and baking soda, wrapped in linen, cotton like a Swiss roll to make coloured smoke for the arrows. It was a lot of fun, until we set a hedge on the edge of the field alight.

@tods_workshop

4 ай бұрын

Sounds like my childhood, but they were most likely not signal arrows, but in fact it appears I was wrong and they are in fact fire arrows

@hellequingentlemanbastard9497

4 ай бұрын

@@tods_workshop - Certainly they are, the hedge burned nicely, since it was in August and around the mid 30's Celsius. What fun we had. If kids try that today the whole Police-force will pounce on them because of some stupid by-law that nobody ever had heard of.

My Austrian grandfather showed me how to make blunts by pushing an arrow shaft into the pith of a section of elder wood about 100mm long. At short ranges typical for small game he didn't bother fletching the shaft and they were extremely effective and easy to make. He didn't mention shooting waterfowl, but did shoot fish!

@tods_workshop

4 ай бұрын

Thanks - great history

Transverse arrowheads have a big history as hemorragic weapons, and were both used as hunting, but also as military arrows against soft targets. Crescent arrows inflicts gashing wounds that are extremely demoralizing due to the amount of blood. The incendiary basket arrow will lodge itself and crush a coal ember into soft flammable material that in the past were everywhere. Cloth, hay, straw, basketery, thatched roofs, wood bundles, firewood stacks, and so on. The average traditionnal bakery would have piles of wood bundles as tall as a house laying around. Stables would have piles of hay and straw everywhere. The ubiquitous thing for makeshift defense and palissades are different type of wickerworks, like hurdles and gabions, the basket arrow are ideal to try burn it up from further away than with cheaper torch arrows. The coal inside the basket last a long time, is less conspicuous (especially at night) than a bunch of lit up torch arrows and does not need to be launched from a very low poundage bow to avoid snuffing out the flame.

Great video Tod (and Will) and your comments/observations marry up with my own armour tests. Needles are great against everything except "hard metal armor". But in my experience, the square section needles perform better than the diamond section ones. I have both Will's and Hector Coles Needles. Perhaps if they were steel and sharpened they would do fair better against Gamebson, but in their default, from the smith shape, square section needles just do better in all my tests. The type 9/Crecy/Warbodkins, as you said are very multi-purpose while having a "chance" to penetrate the plate. Type 16, Miltary Broadheads (Chippenham/Viking Leaf) when sharpened are gambeson killers! It makes sense to have steel barbs. So you can sharpen them better. They don't do well against Mail or Shields though. In fact, they are quite poor against those armours. I have an unpopular theory regarding square-section needles, but I will save that for my future armour test.

Fascinating stuff! The only arrows missing were the boomerang arrow and the boxing-glove arrow!

@danstotland6386

4 ай бұрын

Boomerang arrows? You are more likely to find in Australia.

Very interesting discussion with examples and history. I had no idea the forked head had been evolved in so many places and for so long. Two craftsmen talking about items that interest them never gets old.

The basket arrow is clearly a leprechaun delivery device. It was used for rapid deployment of the wee commandos behind enemy lines.

@johncartwright8154

4 ай бұрын

Nonsense! How would said Little People get out of the thing? 😄

@intzbk1

4 ай бұрын

@@johncartwright8154 What they don't show is that they had little lazy-boys made of leather that have since rotted away. There were thoughts that some even had TV stands for the in-flight meal. Leprechauns are a lot smaller than they show in movies and had plenty of room with some suggesting that there were versions for a two-seater. That was so a leprechaun could bring his wife along although this has been disputed due to the fact of the reason leprechauns leave their pot of gold is to get away from their wives.

Hi Tod, about the hunting arrow, you nailed the purpose of barber broadhead to make it only go forward, we actually still use this kind of blades in hunting scenarios (Simmons great white shark for example) anyway most of the time on good shots the arrow pass through the pray easily. For the arrow drift you experienced with crossbow I think it's because of the weight of the broadhead combined with the shaft of the arrow, heavy point on arrow softens the stiffness of the shaft (spine) which causes it to flex more then it should, this make the arrow drift to the left or to the right depends on which side is lean the crossbow or the bow, to avoid this effect in the past they used to craft arrows shafts out of stiffer wood, or they increase diameter shaft, put more fletching or add a weight on the back of the arrow which increase the stiffness of the shaft

@tods_workshop

4 ай бұрын

Thanks for the input. generally the spine has left/right drift off a long bow because of the archers paradox, but off a crossbow this is not a thing.

@chrisruzsa2798

4 ай бұрын

@@tods_workshop crossbow still have a paradox it’s just different. String twists, rotation of bolt, vanes and rotation, point, and canting will all affect how the bolt flys and where it will go.

Ohhh dang, excited for the incendiary arrows!

Since the fire basket arrow will collapse on impact maybe it was used for sea warfare. If it throws hot embers all over the deck that would be a lot harder to track down and extinguish than just a few burning arrows on the deck. Somewhat of a "You'll never be sure you've put every ember out" type of psychological warfare arrow. I could see ten of these sending hundreds of embers all over a ships deck creating a whole lot more chaos than standard fire arrows, maybe enough chaos to allow for a retreat (since ships engaged within bow range prior to boarding until real ships guns came about "set fire and sail/row away" makes sense) if outnumbered and outmatched. Even today smouldering fires are the more insidious type, I could see that being a major cause of fear for sailors when the fire extinguisher was a bucket line and every bucket used also needed bailed out to keep a ship afloat. You'd need to either douse the entire ship, or inspect it from top to bottom in this case just to be certain it isn't going to catch light while you pursue, compared to dousing a few dozen burning shafts with what would be the medieval form of a damage control team. Of course you wouldn't need to use one type only either. 20 standard flaming shaft arrows alongside 10 fire basket arrows would make things much harder to figure out where the embers are, singe you're already busy putting out the visible fire. Quicklime powder may work, though would that type of arrow really release enough to cause significant damage to be worth it? Even a thin clay pot would hold maybe 30g of it, probably less, which isn't a lot.

At the companions of the longbow we used to light the bonfire at roves farm by shooting fire arrows interestingly when shooting at night you cant see much further than the arrow when trying to aim at the bonfire. And another thing people dont think about is you can set light to your bow if you full draw. So I'd expect fire arrows to be slightly longer than a normal arrow

Nice video again....👍 The basket arrow to me is most effective as fire arrow. Put some hemp mixed with iron shavings in it . than some sulphur and oil. Before shooting let it burn a litle. Than shoot. The wind from shooting will kill the flame butt the iron shavilgs and hemp will glow realy hot. When the target is hard than the glowing sparks will light the sulphur agan and the abrupt stop will spray the sulphur forward. We tryed that about 15 years ago and it went out rather well 😁maybe you try it as well

@tods_workshop

4 ай бұрын

Fantastic - thank you and I will give this a go. Sounds great and very period. Did this come from a period source?

@homemadehistory7537

4 ай бұрын

sad to say that there is no period source at all as far as I know. We just have afew finds from this arrow heads. We tested with arrowheads and with arrows of a balista/Scorpio . The ballista was verry impressive, there we used steel wool as well😁@@tods_workshop

I love Ted's pure honesty. This video is filled with "we don't know for sure", and he makes no clains to have all the answers. But he put out theories, well researched, and he is up for debate.

I really liked this collaboration. Two experts sharing what they know, occasionally interrupting one another to throw more information on top. No egos, no showing off. Just a... Kinda cozy lecture? Thanks!

Fun fact: On the Battle of Grunwald reenactment blunts made of rags and leather are used during the "battle" Together with blanks fired from cannons and harkbuses. I think that is translation of Polish "hakownica".

awesome work as always Will

Beautiful work! Interesting discussion! Thanks!

The 'fire' basket is definitely for carrying something, the extra effort in making them had to make it worth it Since the other ones only allow for something to be wrapped around, and even lime or similar could be encased in a wrapping around them, it looks to me to be a breakable container with something explosive/toxic/flammable that would not work if wrapped

@littlekong7685

4 ай бұрын

My main theories are: A signalling Arrow: It could be filled with loose enough material that the material would get a lot of oxygen in flight and glow brightly, especially if you added filings of various metals to make green/blue/red flames. Chemical: Fill it with a ceramic tube of something foul, the "cage" is only there to hold things tight until the arrow fails and the size is a bit of a red herring in that regard. Messenger: A wooden dowel inserted inside the cage with a note wrapped around it, the note would be held away from the airflow by the head allowing for, possibly, better flight.

@LeutnantJoker

4 ай бұрын

@@littlekong7685 From a military perspective I could see that. Even if it's just shooting a message to a nearby formation for quick messaging and coordination. Today we have radios, back then a shout can only go so far and a runner isn't as fast as an arrow. I could totally see signalling arrows being a thing. I mean to this day we use stuff like flare guns for coordinating attacks. I could see this being an old version of a flare. Heck why not an alarm arrow. I'm sure they still had people attacking them at night, trying to sneak up. If you can have lookouts that can shoot an arrow that brightly glows in the night as a warning... totally makes sense to me.

Interesting as always! My theory on the topic of why the type 16s and other "swallowtail" heads are often steel tipped is that they are way harder to manufacture with the forgewelding part versus just hammer out a simple bodkin thus using "the good stuff" for durability makes sense. maybe durability didn't matter though in a military setting and arrows where seldom used twice i dont know. or maybe its just easier to weld steel to iron.

@JanoTuotanto

4 ай бұрын

The barbs need to be hardened stiff. If they are soft they will bend flush against the socket in penetration.

@CowCommando

4 ай бұрын

I had the same thought for durability and reuse. The arrow heads versus metal armor are likely to be damaged and have to be worked on to be reused no matter if they're steel or not, so might as well use the cheap stuff since it doesn't matter. The things meant to go against flesh probably aren't going to be damaged, or damaged as much, so making them durable to not require working before reuse makes sense. Whether that's how it actually plays out in reality, who knows.

Super interesting. Thanks for the video.

One of my favorite videos to date! Very informative! Also its fascinating look at at military and hunting technical innovations from the medieval period! Thx!

John Smythe describes "galling arrows", and I personally believe that's what the type 9 are for. The heads are suited to longer range archery (which Smythe describes the galling arrows be used for). The Type 16s are the ones for going against armour.

@tods_workshop

4 ай бұрын

Thanks, but as 16's are lighter they would go further, so why do you think 9's are for distance? I have a sneaky feeling that 16's may be against armour but need to test

Oh boy I can't wait for the next arrows versus armor, etc video! It's gonna be a banger for sure.

Wonderful and informative - straight to the “point”.

the cage type, collapsing on impact with a coal in it, would scatter sparks like a firework, increasing the chances of starting something alight if you're shooting into windows/slits, or at roofs, or even into grassy fields if they're dry enough. instead of a singular ignition point of a flaming arrow, you could cover a large area, possible multiple square meters, in sparks, attempting to blindly light something inside a structure or over a wall you can't see past.

Great video Tod!!! I enjoyed your video and I gave it a Thumbs Up

Excellent, very informative and enlightening! I have often wondered about the varieties of bodkins and their purposes. Thank You for the effort to present this information. Skal

@tods_workshop

4 ай бұрын

Glad it was helpful!

Another very interesting video, top man.

Great video

Another great video.

Just another great video!

Sounds like there is some great stuff coming up

Always a pleasure

Some of the things you mentioned about the swallow-tail head still apply today in bow hunting. Larger broadheads can “plane”, steering the head off course. You’ll see broadheads with cutouts in the blades for this reason - it reduces surface area. There are also expanding broadheads with open on impact to increase surface area. But I think barbed heads are illegal in some places. Someone else commented that the arrow often passes completely through the animal. True for deer; I don’t know about larger game like moose, though. But there is speculation that you don’t want an arrow sticking out of the animal as it would catch on trees and brush, thereby spooking the animal and causing it to run further.

@jagx234

4 ай бұрын

If you're talking about planing through the air, for modern arrows and bolts: that's why you see 3 blades on fixed broadheads(timed with shims to match the fletchings, and almost all of the 2 bladed ones are mechanical, not opening until penetration/impact. Edit: autocorrect gave wrong word

@M60E3MG

4 ай бұрын

@@jagx234 good point! Though I think there’s disagreement on needing to time the head with the fletching. I suppose it depends on a lot of factors.

@kyleholliss5483

3 ай бұрын

a protruding arrow shaft catching on timber/grass etc is going to cause significant movement internally at the arrow head. this would aid in getting the animal down faster no? Almost like you dont want to be penetrating more than the depth of chest cavity for your shot, let the head mince around internally as much as possible.

@M60E3MG

3 ай бұрын

@@kyleholliss5483 I’ve wondered about that myself. Even the act of running would cause muscles to move the broadhead, possibly enlarging the wound. Add in the leverage of the tail of the arrow hitting trees & brush and you’d have a bigger wound.

Retired 18z here. I can think of 3 possibilities for the cage arrow. Tie colored ribbon on for a leader to direct fire at a specific point. Using a lit coal at night could be a signal to advance. Could contain a message for a unit separated by water or other obstacles.

@ScottyAlmondjoy

4 ай бұрын

A message wouldn’t have such a large, open basket. You’d want a slit, or wrap it around the shaft and tie a thin string.

@corwinhyatt519

4 ай бұрын

I'm curious how much noise one of those make while in flight. If it loud enough and distinctive enough then there would be no need to tie or otherwise attach anything to them for simple signals that you don't want to be visible from a longish distance.

@revolvermaster4939

4 ай бұрын

@@ScottyAlmondjoyno one would notice a note wrapped & tied to a shaft in battle, definitely not during flight.

@ScottyAlmondjoy

4 ай бұрын

@@revolvermaster4939 paint the shaft then

@revolvermaster4939

4 ай бұрын

@@ScottyAlmondjoy still not noticeable in flight.

Great video!

Very interesting film! It points out just how hard it is to figure out how something was used, even when you have a pretty comprehensive picture of how they were made and even what they were called. Makes practical experimentation all the more important!

@tods_workshop

4 ай бұрын

Thanks. One of the best things about this channel is the comments and it seems there is a fire basket still loaded in Germany and a very close description explains the loads in an Arabic archery manual

Very interesting discussion !

Most likely a delivery arrow for lime or whatever nasties would fit. Imagine all the different things you could send your enemies 🙂

That was fascinating. Great stuff, Tod and Will!

Great video.

I wonder if the reason they often made the type 16 arrow heads out of steel is to make them better against cloth armor? I recall some modern tests suggesting that a very sharp blade or arrow has a much easier time going through gambeson, whereas a dull blade is stopped by cloth. If steel can better maintain a sharp edge, that could perhaps explain the choice? Btw. when we're talking about military arrows designed 'against flesh', one possible target would be horses. I think it was quite rare for horses to have full metal armor, more often they would have cloth barding as their main protection, so perhaps getting through that barding would be another consideration they had in mind.

Would be interesting to see the different types of fire arrows against thatch.

Really enjoyed this one, nice one, from Germany. That last arrow, like you said about lime, could it as well been a signal arrow night time use? Just a thought.🤓

Interesting insight about the blunts and the butts. That makes sense!

I always like it when Tod says "we are going to test this". That always means that we will have a series of researched vids in a year or 2. And in the time between we'll have good researched vids about stuff Tod is working on at this moment. Non of that instant gratification bullsh*t but good and honest video's where all research has been given and where results can change what was the commen conception about the subject.

@tods_workshop

4 ай бұрын

Thanks for your faith! And yes I hope to deliver something good soon

6:57 that dagger looks like a mini Celtic/Gaulish sword! That's cool!

I was watching the Winter King with my wife, the weapons all had your Tod Cutler marks on them. I assume you did the weapons?

@tods_workshop

4 ай бұрын

Some of them - not yet watched it

very interesting! i wonder if the basket arrow could have been for holding coals to shoot at ships, where you wanted it to collapse and drop the hot coals down into the ships innards?

@jm9371

4 ай бұрын

You might be onto something here. They might have been a simple incendiary arrow. To set grain fields, thatch roofs or such on fire.

looking forward for trials of these arrows

The basket arrowhead could (theoretically) be used like a contact fuze. The acceleration on release is lower than the one on impact. A breakable terra cotta, burnt clay or lime vessel could be inserted and break on impact, releasing its payload. If people were to stand beneath a hard surface, you could let basically drop anything pottable onto their heads. Quicklime, coals, oil, feces, rotten meat, insects you name it. It would be a very delicate act though, since making something just breakable enough is even today a tough job. Burning coals or other burnables could also be used as an indicator at night. To signal, for example, "attack NOW", if shot in the air, or "all tribuchets shoot this spot". Another possiblity I have tested personally as a child is to simply make noise. I once made the tip of a stick red hot and shot it with a bow. It made a whistling sound as it flew.

@gregwood5450

4 ай бұрын

Could the basket arrowhead carry a biological agent? (Mouse?)

@OperationDarkside

4 ай бұрын

@@gregwood5450I have very little experience with handling dead animals. They're quite floppy and oily, especially in later stages of decomposition. But where there's a will...

Very interesting!

I remember a tv documentary in the mid 60's claiming the mark 6 'half moon' type head was a hunting animal and the guy takking said in its largest form could nearly cut a sheep in half, but the tv show was a long time ago and I'm 73, sooo believe what you may :)

17:24. Arrows from muskets! Now that’s new to me 😀

i'm obviously speaking as a complete amateur, but the first thing that popped into my head with the basket arrow is that it might create more surface area of fire to wood. if it's crushed in with something that deforms (cloth) rather than shatters (coals) wouldn't the squashed basket form a nice bigger circle, while the ones with it wrapped around the bolt end up only having the tip of the cloth against wood. pure conjecture ofcourse. great video as always!

A theory from a misspent childhood playing with matches and accelerants ;) ... I suspect the basket headed arrow is designed to be packed with something to soak up a flammable liquid - perhaps a soft loose woven cloth or other sponge like material (fleece might work well) which is then ignited before being fired. When the basket hits a fairly solid object, the liquid accelerant in the cloth will be squeezed by the arrow shaft as the basket collapses, squirting burning liquid out in all directions. And that liquid should still have momentum and be travelling forwards - so it's likely to hit the target in a circle around the point of impact. Rapidly mixing fuel with air like that would probably also cause a bit of a fireball. Spectacular if nothing else! That might be a way of starting a fire more rapidly that a simple flaming arrow with compound which has to sit there embedded in something whilst alight - where depending on the angle it strikes and sits (like a wooden shingled roof for example), its flame might simply go off up into the air and burn off instead of projecting its fuel onto the thing you want to set aflame. Whaddya reckon Tod?

@tobyrobson2939

4 ай бұрын

Just ploughed through the earlier comments - seems @homemadehistory7537 offered a very similar idea

I wonder if those fire basket heads would be good at setting a ships sails on fire? The canvas should catch the arrow pretty well, and the basket should hold the incendiary compound to the canvas long enough for it to ignite.

Definitely right on track about now hunting being done at closer ranges. It’s still the case nowadays even with modern compound bows and arrows. I’m most familiar with Whitetail Deer which have an instinctual “duck” reflex when they are startled where their entire torso can drop quite a ways. This can cause shots to miss if not accounted for as this reflex will kick in when the deer hears the sound of the bowstring and it’s so lightning quick they can often jump away from the arrow entirely. I can only imagine it was even harder in medieval times.

Lime, fire..... signal arrows, perhaps? VERY interesting. I am looking forward to more tests of arrows 👍👍👍

excellent

My hypothesis, for what it's worth, with those baskets is that you could lodge a hot, burning ember of coke in there and, when shot, the ember would shatter, sending smaller hot embers everywhere. If they were used in conjunction with, say, mangonels that had fired clay pots filled with pig fat and some sort of combustible fuel over an area first, the hot embers would scatter over the fuel and very quickly set everything ablaze. I would LOVE to see someone test that ... over to you Tod! Also, from what I've seen, there is evidence in medieval artwork for those basket arrows and several archaeological examples that have been found but they appear to have been fired from a specially made firearm/cannon and not a bow. There was a thread on an old forum called vikingsword where somebody had one up for auction and they posted a whole load of images of medieval artwork which showed them. How authentic the images were I cannot say but they looked authentic to me.

Great show as always! Could that last basket arrow also be used as just a signal arrow? We know communication during battles is difficult. This could have been a way to signal your armies from long distance.

Lime sounds like it would be a good test. Use chock. Shad from Shadaversity tested fire arrows but he didn't have arrows like that so it didn't work. Now I'm thinking, you light that, get the metal read hot then fire. If the metal is super hot it wont matter if the material falls, hot iron on thatch Will catch. Especially if it penetrates to a thicker layer where their is less moisture.

I could see the fire arrow working pretty well if packed with a sticky flammable substance that would stick to whatever surface it struck all the better if/when the basket collapses. I could also see it being very useful for naval warfare as well.

I'm thinking the fire basket has a specific use: spreading the hot coals in the hope of finding a flammable material, rather than deliberately targeting a flammable material. Like shooting at a ship during a naval battle hoping that those scattering coals might ignite something, whether it be sails, or the tar used for waterproofing, or the ropes. if it embedded in the timber it would be likely slow to start a fire unless it found an area of dry rot, but coals and ashes bouncing around after impact might get into a seam, or onto some rigging. The opportunity for more targets might be more beneficial than a longer burn time. The other type, with a broad head, is more suitable for firing into a thatched roof or hay bales and starting a fire. You have your target, it's easy to hit, and known to be highly flammable. One is targeted and one is looking for a weakness.

Very interesting.

Great job tod and wil. Your both brilliant ar your craft love the channel i have visited the mary rose museum with will and Glennan many years ago and shot with them at joes shoots. Keep up the good work many thanks for your channel ->>>-------> 😊👍

Can't wait for the fire arrows!!!!!!!

All the best in 2024 Tod. Many good and peaceful days for you and your loved ones. ❤

Cant wait to see these tested out.

The iron/steel ones might have had steel edges so they could be sharpened and hold a better edge. Anti-flesh arrows would want a fine edge to cut deep. Also, the basket one might have been for naval use. Lose hot coals laying around a ship deck, falling into a rope pile, etc. could be a hazard. The basket might catch in a sail rather than a narrow arrow just passing through.

Hey Tod! I'm wondering if you've ever looked into a comparison between the benefits of modern and historic bows. For example the pull weights, allowances, flight distance, accuracy, ease of learning. I think it could be interesting to see first hand the evolution of the art, what we gained from it and what's been lost.

Never thought I'd say this, but these are some beautiful arrows!

@tods_workshop

4 ай бұрын

They are

If you fill the basket head with pitch or other sticky "Greek Fire" type of material then the collapsing basket could be very effective. It would basically result in a big splat of flaming material.

Sticking holes in things Tod!

As per usual, great video! I was wondering is there a text that you would point somebody too for learning more about Medieval arrow heads and bows?

wonderful video :)

A Basket Arrow could have been made to hold a woven straw containment pouch. Using an arrow speed and rotation to force a soft wound wide apart would be useful in some cases. Also just how loud can an arrow be made to sound for a distraction,(adding wind pipes?) herding pray towards hunters comes to mind.

@bloodvue

4 ай бұрын

Ooh, some kind of signal arrow for the night raids

An interesting thing about the crescent head. If you take care in sharpening it correctly, as in leaving a few millimeters blunt close to the tips it will pull flesh towards the middle cutting portion, effectively cutting a wider wound channel than it's dimensions. As opposed to a standard broadhead that would push flesh to the sides and cutting a smaller wound channel than itself. This would affect penetration depth, but for small game that is not as much of an issue as the width of the wound channel. Plus, they are obviously not as hard to make.

I was just having a thought: get Joe out, turn on his style of music, and over several weeks just have him pepper a piece of armor and hope that he strikes the same dent twice. Thrice may be too impractical, but i reckon he could punch one hole through a dent and we could see what happens. I bet these knights were dented and I am quite eager to see what happens when an arrow strikes a minor hole in a piece of armor. Absolutely love what you're doing

I was given a 'flaming arrow' as a present by a friend in Southern Germany (Schwaben). The arrowhead is a basket shape, just like the one in your video and she told me that they put dried mushrooms into the basket and start it smouldering. When the arrow is fired, the air is forced into the smouldering mushroom material and the arrow lights up and catches fire. Whether this is an historically accurate method, I do not know. That area of Germany certainly uses fungi a lot more widely than in the UK.The arrowhead consists of a basket with four 'arms' twisted slightly from point to shaft, a short pyramid shaped point about 15mm long with four faces, a 'basket' of about 50mm long and 30mm wide at the widest part, with a 45mm long socket. It looks more like iron than steel.

I've been using Will's arrows for years at fairs and other events. I need to get a complete set though.

TOD!!!!! WE ARE WAITING FOR A CANNON!!!!!!!

I really like Lindybeige video about fire arrows :)

With the basket arrow, you could potentially wrap twine in and around the basket and put a small vial of oil or something in the center. Soak the twine in pitch and set it aflame. When it hits, the basket crumbles, the glass or ceramic shatters and the oil bursts out through the twine in a burning cloud, coating a large surface in burning oil or pitch. It would be an ungainly projectile, but against a castle roof it probably wouldn't be an issue.

That fire basket might work well for targeting thatched roof, or the sails of ships...

As for the basket, might be a combination use arrow. Your idea of lime could be very founded but could also be of embers. It striking would poof out spreading the ember out which should be fairly ignited after that puff from the rush of air. Could also see if there was a liquid of some sort placed inside something like a nut shell or sea or snale shells of some such that could leak out after impact and catch.

Basket head might work particularly well for lighting ground and grass fires.