It’s strange I got into classical music from electronic music so I gravitated to the so called hard stuff. Schoenberg, Berg & Webern gave me so much in return through listening. Definitely worth it

When I'm trying to introduce classical music to friends, I've actually found that atonal and avant-garde music tends to go over rather well, especially Ligeti. I've also had surprising success turning people on to Machaut!

@RoxxorzYourBoxxorz

3 ай бұрын

Machaut kicks ass

About the Webern, you called it the "...ultimate in serial conceptual brevity." Isn't it though! I refer to Webern as the original minimalist. David, thanks for this enjoyable talk, which included several of my own modern music favorites. This talk was so well conceived that I think more than a few people will explore some work that they'd otherwise not take a second look at or not even a first glance. I think you did a service to much of the 20th-C avant-garde but also to future musics as well. I wanted to know the premier date of A Survivor from Warsaw, so I looked it up. In so doing, I got a bit of a shock: The dry, dusty, hot little desert town I've lived in for three years is Albuquerque NM, where the premier was given by its very own symphony orchestra! In 1948, the population was ~55k with no appreciable metro area (it was 35k at the 1940 census, but grew rapidly after the war). It's now a medium sized city of 600k with a metro area that makes a 900k total. A Schoenberg premier by the banks of the Rio Grande!

Great selection and great argument! Come on, someone prove me that A Survivor From Warsaw doesn't send a chill down any music fan's spine. And one of my greatest thrills of all time was listening to the most violent bars of Bartók's Mandarin or Varèse's rawest glories.

Some kids today may actually have a better embarkation point for atonal than some of us oldsters did, since they have things like industrial, thrash, grindcore and noise rock along with trance, ambient, drone, hard electro and house and other music that has acclimated them to being receptive to it. I like all of these kinds of music, btw, along with most everything else.

@hbicht5051

Жыл бұрын

most of those genres are tonal though

@fortunatomartino8549

8 ай бұрын

Never happen Most atonal music is horrible

@morefastmoredates9444

Ай бұрын

Schoenberg for baby - rattle - bpo

I always enjoy Agon popping up on your lists from time to time. You once asked for suggestions for your sometimes-series "How It's Done." For that, I would highly recommend the Gailliarde from Agon. That is THE most uncanny piece of music and orchestration; I can't even comprehend how Stravinsky came up with it. Your opera-plot summations are always enjoyably loosey-goosey, but calling Marie in "Wozzeck" a call girl--I didn't know whether to laugh or cry. Poor Marie! She never gets a break. Keep 'em coming, Dave! 😀

Since some classical fans seem to have difficulty in confronting atonality in concert music, maybe you can devote some talks to point out that they have no problem with it in TV and movie soundtracks. The original blockbuster Planet of the Apes movie, for instance, was a strict 12-tone serial piece by Jerry Goldsmith, but no musical knowledge was required by the audience to understand it. Twilight Zone also has many listening treasures worth exploring in relation to "challenging" music.

Excellent talk! The Second Viennese School is de rigeur for music lovers. It's difficult to embrace for more traditional ears but Schoenberg, Berg and Webern were, indeed, geniuses. After Wagner, somebody had to challenge totality and these composers did it with style! As an introduction, you wouldn't mention Berg's Lulu or Schoenberg's Moses and Aaron, but these are great operas as well. Glad you mentioned Ligeti who is, indeed, a genius. I like a student of his, Unsuk Chin. Ligeti's opera, Le Grand Macabre (revised editon on Sony) is fantastic and could only be written by a person who was unfortunate enough to have lived under governments contolled at various times by two monsters: Hitler and Stalin. Stravinsky's legacy is solid and I don't understand why he felt threatened by 12 tone music. I heard Penderecki's Passion According to St. Mark "live" years ago at Carnegie Hall. A powerful and depressing piece, but worth hearing. I like his atonal work more than his tonal music (go figure)! A Survivor From Warsaw is horribly depressing and frightening. I'll give it another listen, but it gave me nightmares 50 years ago (and rightly so). I'll give it another listen. Thanks!

I'll never forget, years ago, on a long distance drive, I was somewhere in Pennsylvania late at night. My wife was asleep in the passenger's seat and there wasn't a car in sight. All was perfectly calm and I was listening to a late night classical show on the radio when Lux Aeterna came on. It totally transported me to another dimension. Unbelievable piece of music. Thanks for the great list -- again!

Love this video, Dave. I wish you’d cover more modern/contemporary repertoire. Thank you!

Really enjoyed second full visit to this Talk, thank you, Dave

In Canada the CBC Radio used to play works like these in the 1960's, especially on The New Music with composer hosts Harry Somers and Norma Beecroft. It's best when you discover these works on your own.

Thanks for the video, great picks. I’m one of the people who was intensely drawn to this kind of music when I was a beginner to the world of classical music, especially Webern. His 6 Pieces for Orchestra really kicked the door open for me. What an amazing piece.

Another excellent '10 Essential'. Very useful & appreciated the full listing of the 10 works you provide, for easy fast consultation & listening after.

Another Berg piece that could be considered is his Violin Concerto where Berg also did some tweaking with the 12 tone system and made this piece very melodious in places. I just wanted to point out,Dave that I wasn't attempting to add this concerto to your list but only referencing it to point out how "accessible" it might be for new listeners of 12 tone music.

@rogerknox9147

10 ай бұрын

It is a masterpiece and accessible but also might be painfully sad for some.

When I worked at Tower Classical Records in the late 80s, we occasionally played Schoenberg's "A Survivor from Warsaw" (the Boulez recording) right after opening at 8 AM. Just to shake things up a little. We got mostly dirty looks, but no complaints and one customer actually bought a copy.

What a wonderful introduction. I’ve grown to love Schoenberg and Berg - two such rich composers. Endlessly fascinating. Looking forward to Webern, Penderecki, and Ligeti. I just heard his etudes - beautiful! I will try Agon…again. 😎

The Ligeti piece used in 2001:A Space Odyssey that you described is actually his Kyrie from the Requiem for Soprano, Mezzo Soprano, Two Mixed Choirs, and Orchestra. The orchestral piece Atmospheres is also edited together with it. Lux Aeterna is the quiet choral piece used in the moon bus scene where the survey team rides out to the monolith.

@DavesClassicalGuide

Жыл бұрын

Cool. Thanks.

Great choices. When I was a kid, there was a guy in town, a bit of a hippie who knew our family, and he knew I wanted to be a musician. He lent me an LP of the Robert Craft recordings of the Webern 6 Pieces, Berg's 3 Pieces, and Schoenberg's Accompaniment to a Film Scene (Begleitmusik, Op. 34). I can personally attest that I was overwhelmed on first hearing by the Webern and the Berg, which are both on Dave's list. The Schoenberg piece on that album was possibly not the best introduction to that composer, and I did not find it compelling at the time. But that exposure opened a whole world of music to me - I had already discovered Bartok, Prokofiev, and Shostakovich, but this was clearly something different.

All are a treat. They sound so familiar in 2022.

This is a very good starter collection. Many of these pieces were the very ones that led me into this kind of music, especially the various 'Orchestral Pieces' by Schoenberg, Berg and Webern. And, as jg5861 wrote, A Survivor from Warsaw - especially when the choir enters - really does send chills down the spine. Lux aeterna first got me into Ligeti. UK TV from thirty years ago agreed about Stravinsky's Agon. It was made the theme tune to a major TV series called 'Leaving Home' [i.e. 'moving away from tonality] by Dave's not-so-fave Sir Simon Rattle intended to introduce British viewers to 20th Century music. I didn't take to Agon at the time but have grown to enjoy it since.

@craigbias4494

Жыл бұрын

To put it another way, this kind of 'atonal/12 tone' music hits home and lives on when it's closest to tonality/modality.

You have chosen only 9 pieces. I love most of these works . I've never listened to Penderecki Threnody and i will . Thank-you !

@DavesClassicalGuide

Жыл бұрын

Whoops! Forgot to add Webern's 5 Pieces for Orchestra. Good call. Thanks

I got to know the Schoenberg' Five Pieces for Orchestra long before I heard either Transfigured Night or Pelleas and Melisande and have always liked the work, particularly the early Chicago Symphony/Kubelik/Mercury recording, then, later, the Cleveland/Christoph von Dohnanyi/Decca. Both terrific, in my opinion. I like the rest of your selection, too, although I have to admit I don't know Agon at all well, even though I have two recordings of it. I really must listen to it again.

You descrive these works so well, especially these composers who sometimes get too much of a harsh treatment. like you say, there's good and bad music, there's good and bad atonal music...

Any list with "Agon" on it gets my total approval, whether for a beginner or an expert.

@dennischiapello3879

Жыл бұрын

We Agon-lovers have to stick together. It doesn't get performed enough, and there are not many recordings of it. Yet, it strikes me as thoroughly approachable, with its division into short pieces, rhythmic verve, fascinating orchestral color, and terrific wit. It holds my attention more than Firebird does.

@windowtrimmer8211

Жыл бұрын

@@dennischiapello3879 A few years ago, Tilson Thomas programmed Agon with the San Francisco Symphony at Carnegie Hall. Imagine my disappointment when the program was changed at the last minute to The Fairy's Kiss.

@maxhirsch7035

Жыл бұрын

@@windowtrimmer8211 Sure; but that's a great piece, too, in its own way, IMO. Two different kinds of great- but that being said, I'd find Agon more appealing as an atypical selection for current public performance.

@dennischiapello3879

Жыл бұрын

@@windowtrimmer8211 No kidding! 😧

@RoxxorzYourBoxxorz

3 ай бұрын

​@@dennischiapello3879tell it to us Threni-lovers... we have all of, ah, three recordings, of which one and a half is good?

Oh, this really is a very listener-friendly selection :)

If my experience is of any help, I listened all of these works (except for Agon and Schoenberg's five pieces) when I myself was a beginner (a lot of years ago) and they inmediately became some of my faves. I simply loved them from the first time. So, you beginners, don't be afraid of anything and just try!!

I'm writing you from Buenos Aires,, Argentina. No matter why, during a long week I've had a lot of idle time and I was able to watch a very good number of your excellent and addictive videos. First at all, let me congratulate you: all of them are a joy for ever and a day. But, as always, there's a "but": I was looking unsuccessfully for a post of yours with opinions about Vanhal and Dittersdorf. If it isn't anyone, would you be so kind as to speak some day of both of them? ( Please do forgive my uncouth English.) All the best, Daniel Martino.

@DavesClassicalGuide

Жыл бұрын

Your English is excellent. Thank you for your suggestions.

@danielmartino4602

Жыл бұрын

Dear Mr. Hurwitz, thanks for your generous and snappy answer. Trusting not to abuse your kindness, I will dare to suggest you two other topics, perhaps complementary to each other. The first one would be: THE 10 BEST MUSICAL FORGERIES (viz., Albinoni's ADAGIO, Paradies' SICILIENNE, the famous case of the Set of Haydn’s sonatas by W. Michel, aka Tomesini-Simoneti, and so on). The second one, THE TEN MOST REASONABLE (OR UNDERSTABLE) FALSE MUSICAL ATTRIBUTIONS (viz., Beethoven's Jena Symphony written by Witt, W.A. Mozart's Symphony 39 K.444 written by M. Haydn, L. Mozart's Toy Symphony written by you know who, and so on). I hope I'm not bothering you with these modest proposals. Thanks a lot and all the best, Daniel Martino

Brilliant talk. My Gen Z son listens to a lot of game soundtrack music. It occurred to me that some of it sounds like Sun Ra, some like atonal music. Because what’s the purpose of this music? To create propulsive rhythms and to be spooky and atmospheric. Sure enough, I can play avant-garde jazz or 12-tone music around him and it doesn’t ruffle his feathers in the slightest.

Dave, truly an excellent starter set! I would have had to add an 11th: "Le Mateau San Maître" by Boulez. "Studie II" by Stockhausen is also high on my list, but it's entirely electronic.

@tonescape1

11 ай бұрын

Le Marteau Sans Maître (... accidentally left out an s)

It's not what I fear; it's what I hear. I listen and cannot help that I want to hear something much more pleasing to my ear. That does not make the music bad; only different from what my ear is seeking. And, yet, I am always mesmerized by Penderecki's Threnody.

Liked your comment "frisbeed out the window." I like some of the works on the list, escpecially Webern.

BPO/Rattle did the Schoenberg/Webern/Berg pieces in Ann Arbor a couple years back. In a pre-concert remark, Rattle described the Berg as “Mahler put into a trash compactor.” Definitely put things into a more comprehensible perspective.

I liked all these pieces. My favorite was Agon by Stravinsky. I am HUGE Radiohead/Jonny Greenwood fan so I listened to the album he did with Penderecki in 2012 and I really enjoyed that too. I think people who like the genre "Post Rock" will like these selections.

I just spent some time getting into the LaSalle stuff - Schoenberg and co - on vinyl in that massive box set. I was trepidatious, but I was surprised how much I enjoyed pretty much all of it. Schoenberg's Fourth Quartet is entirely in 12 tone serialism, but you honestly can't tell. It's just great music.

no kidding Dave, a Survivor for Warsaw- freaking Schoenberg! what a Juggernaut-❤

Inspired by a line from a Merrill poem ("When he surmises through one of Bach's eternal boxwood mazes the oboe pungent as a bitch in heat, or when the calypso decants its raw bay rum or the moon in Wozzeck reddens ripe for murder..."), I bought a DVD of Wozzeck a few years ago, but just couldn't get into it. After watching this I decided to give it another try, and finally I liked it. I heard what you described: it does get less atonal as it goes along, and even near the beginning it's not so far removed from the classical tradition. The difficulty I initially had with it was more to do with the production than the music.

@DavesClassicalGuide

Жыл бұрын

Good for you! I admire the fact that you gave it another chance.

gospel truth! one of the first operas I ever heard, that really made me fall in love with the form [and with 20th century music] was Richard Strauss's Salome and Elektra, both of them absolutely electrifying. Those weren't quite atonal, but they were on their way to atonality. It really allowed me to have an appreciation years later for Schoenberg's Moses und Aron, which is masterful.

@stuf159

Жыл бұрын

Don’t you mean Elektra-fying?

@soozb15

11 ай бұрын

Have you checked out the performance of Moses and Aron on KZread, conducted by Zoltán Kocsis, which includes a third act?

@vrixphillips

11 ай бұрын

@@soozb15 :O no i haven't! i'll have to, now!

Well, now I had to listen to Schönberg's Wind Quintet - clever rhetorical move 😉.

@DavesClassicalGuide

Жыл бұрын

I pity you.

@RoxxorzYourBoxxorz

3 ай бұрын

I think his Suite for Septet is a more rewarding work to penetrate

I consider myself a beginner in this region of the vast music spectrum and truly appreciate your list as a ' jumping off" point. In searching for recorded performances to try, I came across an older Mercury Living Presence recording of Antal Dorati conducting the LSO in the Schoenberg Five Pieces, Berg Three Pieces, and Webern Five Pieces, all on a single CD. I suspect there may be better recordings of these individual works but this CD looks too good to pass up.

@DavesClassicalGuide

Жыл бұрын

It's very good.

Dave, thanks so much for this video. I've been listening to classical music since I was a kid, but have to admit I still find most of the composers on this list to be a bit challenging, so these pieces are just what I've been looking for. I'm actually still coming around to the likes of Prokofiev, Bartok, Shostakovich and even Debussy and might actually suggest that folks new to classical music (folks who find their comfort zone in the more easy-to-decipher tunes of Beethoven, Mozart, Chopin, etc.) begin there as a way to sort of "bridge the gap" before diving into atonal works. Thanks again.

@DavesClassicalGuide

Жыл бұрын

You are very welcome, but I disagree strongly with the need to "bridge the gap," or otherwise do anything other than simply dive in and see what you like.

@Steve_Stowers

Жыл бұрын

Is familiarity with traditional tonal classical music any help in understanding or appreciating atonal music?

@DavesClassicalGuide

Жыл бұрын

@@Steve_Stowers Sure. There's much more to music than just harmony.

The first Schoenberg piece I really enjoyed was the little op. 24. Perhaps not a masterpiece, but I found it charming.

Dave -- I'm sorry, but you inadvertently invited me into telling you my favorite joke with atonal music. Not to make light of it, but DO enjoy all that rich "atonal" music on the day of "atonement!" L'shana tova!

As you suggest - just like with all other forms of music, certain pieces w/in a genre can dramatically differ from others of their 'ilk' and thus no genre should beb entirely ruled out, e.g., I'm not typically an opera fan, but I love Janacek's Cunning Little Vixen. Similarly, Ligeti's music and Stravinsk's Agon are VERY different from Schoenberg's work, and all them are quite different from that of Turnip (sorry, Turnage). Also, interpretation can make 'difficult' works more likable, e.g., in his own way, Karajan made recorded Berg and Webern pieces quite appealing.

My gateway Schoenberg piece was his Variations for Orchestra, Op. 31. I acquired it on a Solti recording of the Enigma Variations, oddly enough. I have no idea if Solti is considered much of a Schoenberg conductor by reputation, but he made that piece accessible to me and I became more receptive to his other music. Before that I had this vague idea of Schoenberg being a little forbidding and difficult, but after the Solti record, his music didn't seem so unapproachable.

@Anvanho

Жыл бұрын

Yes, his VfO Opus 31 is one of my all out favorite CDs I own!

@marks1417

Жыл бұрын

@@Anvanho Solti also recorded and several times performed S's Moses and Aaron

12:30 Interesting to learn about juxtaposing Beet 9 with "Survivor". The third symphony of Sir Michael Tippett does the same thing in ironically tearing the Beethoven to shreds.

I'm not a fan of atonal music, but I will listen to some of these to see if my mind can be changed.

Excellent talk which will hopefully steer some people to this unjustly neglected music. As an aside, are you aware that the Threnody…was given its title after the music was written? This doesn’t change anything about the impact of the piece but it is good to know.

@johnabram3981

Жыл бұрын

It was originally titled 8'37". I am certain it would not have acheived popularity or made its creator famous if that title had remained. 🙁

One of the few atonal works I can hear as music is Lutoslawski's Funeral Music.

Hello Dave, Olde Rocker here. I have been listening to Walter Bruno Pastoral 1958. There is beauty here that I am really enjoying. If you have done a review of this work I would like to hear your critique. To hear your vocabulary of this beautiful piece. Thank you Dave.

@OuterGalaxyLounge

Жыл бұрын

You're really old if you're spelling it "olde." Say hi to Bill Shakespeare for me. Big fan.

@DavesClassicalGuide

Жыл бұрын

Check out the video in the Beethoven playlist for this symphony.

@davidharvey8238

Жыл бұрын

@@OuterGalaxyLounge good one. Bill says guten tag.

Not a fan of atonal at all, but here's a like and a comment for the KZread algorithm. Love your channel David.

@leestamm3187

Жыл бұрын

Me, too. Most of this kind of stuff is like fingernails on the blackboard to me. Fine for those who like it, of course.

I actually think Atonal works are less challenging than arch romantic or even some advanced classical works. For these large tonal works, there IS a through line , form and complex structure that simply require better listening skills to make sense of. For atonal works, you can let it wash over you and try to simply get a musical impression of what it is. A friend of mine started out with these works because they just sounded cool and more accessible to him. Chromatic tonal works were more challenging because he felt frustrated when he could only make sense of some parts but not others.

@georgenestler2534

Жыл бұрын

Hogwash.

@nigelhaywood9753

Жыл бұрын

That was something like my experience. I never had any problems with Webern but I found ultra chromaticized late romanticism difficult to follow. Also the first works of Bartók posed more of a challenge to me than the Bartók of the 20's and 30's. Clusters are sometimes more fun than dark, turgid chords that can be analysed and given proper names. I found Hindemith very accesible because you can understand his harmony without having listened to Wagner, Strauss etc. Perfect fifths and lots of thirds are welcome to the less experienced ear even if they're arranged and presented in a novel, unusual way.

Not just the likes of Gielen but I remember Leinsdorf programmed (and coupled on the BSO recording) Survivor with the NINTH. Leinsdorf could come up with remarkably interesting programs.

Just so i'm sure: Schoenberg: Five Pieces for Orchestra, op. 16, right? i have every piece you listed (with either Boulez, Abbado, Wit, Bohm (Wozzeck) and William steinberg (Ligeti)) except the Agon. i guess i'm going shopping.

@DavesClassicalGuide

Жыл бұрын

Yes.

There's a tone row in Beethoven's Ode To Joy. "Ihr ... sturzt nie- ... der mil- ... lio- ... nen ..." Leonard Bernstein based the second Meditation from his Mass on that tone row.

@DavesClassicalGuide

6 ай бұрын

It's not a tone row. Beethoven never heard of such a thing. We only called it that later. It's just a chromatic sludgesicle.

@jimslancio

6 ай бұрын

Thanks for your reply, and for all your commentary. The atonal sludgesicle represents the direct view of the Godhead, after which the diatonic "Bruder" is all the more powerful.@@DavesClassicalGuide

Atonal and twelve-tone/serial music are just like any other music. You like it or you don't. I understand why it's polarizing. Webern is easily my favorite of the Second Viennese School composers. The sheer audacity of the music is initially off-putting and almost provoked a negative reaction upon my first listen. There's a method to the musical madness. This is music that demands attention and participation. If Webern was writing fifty years later, the music would have worked in just about any thriller film of the era. Robert Craft's 1957 Columbia recording of Webern's oeuvre is by no means "easy." It's my go-to since day one. Not the best as far as sound but the mono mixing and the room ambience works wonders for the music. Have you considered a comparison video of the various complete Webern cycles?

As was said in ancient times: don't criticise an apple for not being an orange- pick your fruit.

I first got into classical music from Frank Zappa's atonal stuff, and now my favorite music is by baroque and classical period composers! I totally agree that atonal music being difficult to listen to by definition is horseshit. It's also great that you got the thredony on here.

Wagner’s Prelude and Liebestod from Tristan und Isolde is absolutely atonal, but in a most beautiful way. Schenkerian analysis just doesn’t work.

Some "beginners" might find "atonal" music relatively easy to grasp because they've heard similar music in parts of film and television scores (other than 2001: A Space Odyssey, of course).

I love Classical Music. But I wish atonal wasn’t the direction of the future. There is no ending to tonal music. Always something new.

@DavesClassicalGuide

Жыл бұрын

Who said it's the direction of the future? Just the opposite.

Is it really music? It's not that it's bad or stupid, but fragmentary. All of it might fit into a piece of music, but it's like sound effects without the music, like a psycho's tale unable to connect the sound and fury into a story of significance. "Oh, you'd like us to stop mass murder as a policy? Well, why didn't you just say so?"

@DavesClassicalGuide

Жыл бұрын

That is a completely incorrect description of this music. Have you even listened to it?

@notrueflagshere198

Жыл бұрын

@@DavesClassicalGuide I listened to the first Webern you listed. I didn't give it much of chance. But I find it difficult to experience it as anything but fragmentary.

@DavesClassicalGuide

Жыл бұрын

@@notrueflagshere198 OK. If that's how you hear it.

@notrueflagshere198

Жыл бұрын

@@DavesClassicalGuide I'm probably not musically smart enough to follow the Second Viennese School. I know they are geniuses, but maybe you have to be almost as smart as they to follow along.

@DavesClassicalGuide

Жыл бұрын

@@notrueflagshere198 Nonsense. Smart has nothing to do with it. Either you feel it or you don't. It is the very opposite of "head" music.

I never got it. To me music brings beauty in the world. I just don’t find atonal beautiful.

"What we mean by atonal music is something that usually sounds like crap!"